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IT Runs on Java 8

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Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#241

Post by StreamBright »

SebastianM wrote: post #206
pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

> low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management This is a joke, right? The management overhead for the JVM in production environments is huge. It's really hard to get it right.

Not sure what you are talking about. Can you give me some examples?

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#242

Post by papaf »

pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff).

The technology is certainly impressive but it isn't equipped to deal with the modern world. It is trivial to run 10 Node.js applications in the memory of one JVM application. This never used to be a problem, but now the cloud is forcing apps to pay for the resources they use its a kiss of death.

There is also the move to serverless and the slow start of the JVM which makes it literally the worst choice out of all the alternatives.

Oh, and lets not even start on the train wreck of Oracle's stewardship -- Java 11 is competing with Java 8.

Java will survive but I cannot see it having any place in a modern software stack.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#243

Post by sanxiyn »

papaf wrote: post #242
pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). The technology is certainly impressive but it isn't equipped to deal with the modern world. It is trivial to run 10 Node.js applications in the memory of one JVM application. This never used to be a problem, but n…

What's wrong with Oracle's stewardship? I am not a fan of Oracle, far from it, but Oracle's stewardship of Java has been exemplary.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#244

Post by hdfbdtbcdg »

pron wrote: post #238
microcolonel wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's an incredibly bad result with many shitty implications that are currently mostly being ignored but could lead to legal nuclear war at any time. I mean, it has been big news, and it has already been nuclear war, with Oracle putting Google in a position to switch android from Dalvik (and successors) to OpenJDK. I agree that it could become a pretty horrible precedent (imagine if Microsoft forbade Sun from implem…

> imagine if Microsoft forbade Sun from implementing Excel functions in StarOffice, or for that matter, if MS were prevented from producing Excel in the first place The things you're talking about are already protected by patents, and the copyrightability of APIs have nothing to do with them. At the very least, for something to be copyrightable it must be some specific fixed expression (a piece of text, image, video…

You should do some reasearch on the Oracle vs Google case.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#245

Post by gameswithgo »

pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

.NET Core is winning a lot of benchmark comparisons now. And one might consider Rust to be more bleeding edge.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#246

Post by gameswithgo »

shawnz wrote: post #133
stingraycharles wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that the parent is talking about the JVM's JIT, where it compiles java bytecode into machine instructions after loading the application. This is why the first few requests on a JVM are usually considerably slower than the rest. Parent is obviously exaggerating with the 5000x, and he could have made his point in a different way, but there's some truth to it.

At the same time, JIT can outperform native code in some specific circumstances, since there are certain optimizations which can be proven safe at runtime which can not be guaranteed to be safe at compile time

this is a thing people say a lot but it is not something that seems to often result in an actual java program or benchmark being faster than program compiled AOT by an equivalently smart compiler (llvm etc)

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#247

Post by iamatworknow »

z3phyr wrote: post #67

I would argue that Hacker News is actually not about the latest in cutting edge technology. Rather, it derives more from the spirit of hacking, fundamentally making computers do something other people thought are not possible to do or never tried. It looks like the latest cutting edge tech but rather its a bunch of people just experimenting. It does not show whats the norm, but what is possible.

That would be cool if that's how things worked, but it seems like nearly every post here (certainly most comments) aren't considering the shiny new tools in that context. Rather, most comments are in the vein of "this seems fun to play with, may have marginal benefit in x business scenario, how do I convince my bosses to let me spend resources implementing it?"

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#248

Post by CountHackulus »

0db532a0 wrote: post #203
lenkite wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JDBC is not JEE - it is core Java. Servlets are the original web-container Java spec, independent of JEE. Both are great specs supported by several stable and performant implementations - rock solid tech compared to a lot of the flaky stuff you find advertised today.

How are Java programmers implementing RESTFUL APIs these days?

I can't speak for others, but I work in games and we've spun up a bunch of servers and we use Netty/Jersey for REST and sockets. It's been incredibly stable and a joy to program for compared to our previous Node servers. Granted we were using bleeding-edge Node 5 years ago which is not the Node of today.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#249

Post by bcit-cst »

ptx wrote: post #239
sonnyblarney wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oracle has a long track record of Sales & Marketing tactics which we can use as a reliable benchmark to predict outcomes. Oracle will likely pursue the most aggressive strategy they can get away with Java. I don't believe Sun was suing Google, but Oracle did. The fact that Google is switching to Kotlin is mostly a means to absolve themselves of the 'Oracle risk' - it's a big change surely, a decision not taken lightl…

Kotlin uses the same VM and API, so it makes no difference in this regard. It's not a big change – it's fully interoperable with Java. You can easily take a single class in a Java application and rewrite it in Kotlin, and everything continues working just as before. Google adopted it because, as they more or less said in the announcement, it was already being adopted by the community and it hugely improved developmen…

but you splitting your developer base. * There will be people better at kotlin * There will be people better at java.

This is a problem when you are looking at hiring new people etc . This fragmentation is going cause issues just because people are hedging against Oracle future decisions.

In a perfect world Google should have bought Sun and the current version of Java would look at lot like Kotlin.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#250

Post by pron »

gameswithgo wrote: post #245
pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

.NET Core is winning a lot of benchmark comparisons now. And one might consider Rust to be more bleeding edge.

Java and Rust are both bleeding edge in their respective domains, which are quite disjoint. I like them both, and Rust may well dominate its domain one day as much as Java dominate its own (although Rust's domain is even slower-moving than Java's, so that process may well take decades). I don't know of .NET Core winning any quality industry benchmarks that people actually pay attention to, let alone a lot of them.
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