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IT Runs on Java 8

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Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#191

Post by sbov »

BenoitP wrote: post #137
crimsonalucard wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but java carries a lot of legacy.

Java, or projects in Java? Java pretty much has to, in order to preserve the most important feature a runtime can have: backwards compatibility. Projects in Java are cursed from the beginning: the language has great constructs for boxing complexity (modifiers, inheritance, interfaces, generics, design patterns allowed by performant virtual calls, etc.). This means that when projects in other languages become unmanage…

It sounds like you're basically saying its difficult and slow to work on large projects, and the solution is to not work on large projects. And that new languages implicitly mean smaller and thus easier projects because they haven't had time to grow.

The weird thing I always get with the always greenfield developers is how you know you aren't just creating even larger messes tomorrow vs the messes you're avoiding today. I guess it isn't your problem though if you're always working greenfield - it's someone else's.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#192

Post by srameshc »

It's a great argument. But at the same it is important to see where a lot of new investment is going into. Enterprise is changing too. So next 10 years will look a lot more different, is my opinion.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#193

Post by sound1 »

syockit wrote: post #122
wglb wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in addition, Visual Basic. Oh, don't forget COBOL.

The part when they said they spent a lot of money to port to C/C++ but couldn't get same efficiency/speed, that's the problem with most porting endeavours: you need people who grok both languages you're porting from and you're porting to, or at least understand the specs and business logic. That COBOL program has probably been optimised so much that the code makes no sense to people without understanding of the intri…

I have been part of couple of migration projects from COBOL (and accompanying mainframe tech) to newer tech. COBOL is a very simple language. What makes porting next to impossible is the functional knowledge of the application, how it intracts with uostream/downstream systems, all the special case handling and how business users expect the new system to behave (hint: same as the existing system). Biggest challenge to porting is that you can't port an entire system at once (takes years), so when you starting migrating part by part, it has to interact with its neighbouring systems exactly how the old system worked. And that is what is most difficult part of porting IMHO..

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#194

Post by lenkite »

bsaul wrote: post #92

Fun story : i had to develop the same system for two different companies, one a startup with 3 employees (the founders) , the other a billion dollar business. Just a backend api & web interface, together with an iOS app displaying the content. I could use shiny new tech for the startup (which at the time was python on app engine and its nosql datastore, with a backbone.js framework), whereas the other one forced me t…

The start-up code written in modern Java would similarly taken two months to develop and maintainable by an intern.

The problem in enterprise tech like you found is that one is forced to use certain, non-productive old frameworks filled with legacy, over-engineered bloat.

Modern Java micro-services in contrast are really fast to develop. Green field Java projects where one can make personal choices of lean technology and libraries are simply amazing. They also have terrific characteristics under load. The JVM performs well even with bloatware. When you trim out and make your JAR's lean and mean then its utterly amazing.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#195

Post by sound1 »

matrix wrote: post #66

I think the author might not realize the substantial difference between working in a tech company (the HN audience) and in supporting roles in non-tech businesses. I have worked in both worlds, and it really just comes down to choosing the right tools for the job. In tech you're supposed to be on the cutting edge. That's part of what makes it fun and rewarding. However, if anybody feels lesser for working in non-tech…

Yep, if your company's core business is not tech, be prepared to work on shitload of legacy and outdated technologies.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#196

Post by jimmaswell »

mfatica wrote: post #109
pron wrote: post #85

The funny thing is that from a purely technological point of view, Java (even the 5-year-old Java 8 and certainly recent versions) is far ahead of most other stuff hyped on HN (as well as less hyped stuff). Virtually no other platform comes close to that combination of state-of-the-art optimizing compilers, state-of-the-art GCs, and low-overhead in-production profiling/monitoring/management. And much of the cutting-e…

How does this compare to the .NET ecosystem?

Lightyears behind it. There's no reason Java is still prevalent besides inertia. .NET/.NET Core is going to slowly but surely overtake it with Java shooting itself in the foot with the new licensing terms and .NET/C#'s far better feature set/better design (lessons learned from Java/JVM's mistakes were able to be fixed in C#/.NET)

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#197

Post by sonnyblarney »

pron wrote: post #142
ksec wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Technically there is nothing I don't like about JVM right now, everything that seems impossible 15 years ago is now solved. AOT used to be bag of hurt with GCJ ( I know I could use Excelsior, not sure if it was free in my time though ), but now even that will be an supported option from Graal. Java the languages still isn't pretty, but it has been much improved. OpenJDK is GPL and apart form the trademark ( ? )…

> I am just a little uneasy with Oracle lurking around, I just don't know what they are going to do next. What do you mean by "lurking"? Oracle is the company developing OpenJDK, and it will continue to do so. All our projects are done in the open, with lots of communication.

Oracle has a long track record of Sales & Marketing tactics which we can use as a reliable benchmark to predict outcomes.

Oracle will likely pursue the most aggressive strategy they can get away with Java.

I don't believe Sun was suing Google, but Oracle did.

The fact that Google is switching to Kotlin is mostly a means to absolve themselves of the 'Oracle risk' - it's a big change surely, a decision not taken lightly.

The future of Java under Oracle is hard to predict but there's legit concerns Oracle will make things hard.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#198

Post by thrower123 »

matrix wrote: post #66

I think the author might not realize the substantial difference between working in a tech company (the HN audience) and in supporting roles in non-tech businesses. I have worked in both worlds, and it really just comes down to choosing the right tools for the job. In tech you're supposed to be on the cutting edge. That's part of what makes it fun and rewarding. However, if anybody feels lesser for working in non-tech…

The biggest tech companies in the world run on mountains of C and Obj-C code that are old enough to buy a beer or rent a car without paying extra.

The thing about the bleeding edge is it's too easy to cut yourself and bleed out. I see lots of people bogging theselves down in the details of their sexy new framework, without understanding the principles of what it is doing - which is rarely different than using cool new thing n-1 or n-2 correctly.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#199

Post by ptx »

> Java 8 is still the dominant development environment, according to the JVM ecosystem report of 2018.

At the time the cited survey was conducted, Java 11 had not yet been released, so Java 8 was still the current LTS version.

> There’s a lot to dislike about the [HN] commenters ...

That seems uncalled for.

Re: IT Runs on Java 8

#200

Post by microcolonel »

nickpsecurity wrote: post #169
pron wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am just a little uneasy with Oracle lurking around, I just don't know what they are going to do next. What do you mean by "lurking"? Oracle is the company developing OpenJDK, and it will continue to do so. All our projects are done in the open, with lots of communication.

In a lawsuit, Oracle pushed for API's to be copywritten, not just their implementation. They also have paid lobbyists. They're also greedy assholes. The combo of greedy assholes and the ability to rewrite the law is a dangerous one. So, I don't use a language unless it's open with patent grants and has a non-malicious owner. At this point, Wirth's stuff is probably legally the safest.

> copywritten

copyrighted

"Copywritten" probably means nothing, but if it did, it would have something to with copy writing, the act of writing for publication (usually commercial, usually not long-form).

Added: FYI "copyrighting" is not a conscious decision, or an action you can take. Copyright emerges automatically when you create a work, what they've done is defend their copyright in court, and the courts have mixed opinions on the matter.

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