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The Amazing $1 Microcontroller (2017)

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Re: The Amazing $1 Microcontroller (2017)

#191

Post by fr0sty »

close04 wrote: post #189
fr0sty wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you'd have to provide the whole "paper trail" for every single bit of your setup Can you cite any firsthand account of this sort of thing happening somewhere in the US? Given the ease with which people can reach millions of people with their tale of woe/outrage the fact that such stories are not readily available on social media makes me think this is mostly urban legend.

Not sure I understand, you think it's an urban legend that an insurance company will do what it can to avoid a payout especially when the incident involves unauthorized modifications to the electrical wiring of the house, which ended up triggering a fire? There's no need to cite firsthand accounts, you will find this in your own insurance contract. Insurance works pretty much the same everywhere, unauthorized modific…

I believe it is an urban legend that homeowner's insurance claims (specifically fire damage to structure or other contents) are being denied with any frequency because a 'homebrew' contraption was present in the home, adjacent to the start of the fire, or even the source of ignition.

Here is a link to a sample Homeowner's policy: https://www.iii.org/sites/default/files/docs/pdf/HO3_sample....

Exclusion B on page 12 is probably the relevant section. It excludes loss due to "Faulty, inadequate or defective:... workmanship, re- pair, construction, renovation, remodeling,..." but also contains an "ensuing loss" exception.

Here is an article about that: https://www.irmi.com/articles/expert-commentary/ensuing-loss...

> A classic example [of an ensuing loss exception] is if faulty repair resulted in improper wiring and the improper wiring caused a fire. Almost every insurer would pay for the fire damage, but not for the repair of the improper wiring.

Re: The Amazing $1 Microcontroller (2017)

#192

Post by RealWorldPolice »

close04 wrote: post #189
fr0sty wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you'd have to provide the whole "paper trail" for every single bit of your setup Can you cite any firsthand account of this sort of thing happening somewhere in the US? Given the ease with which people can reach millions of people with their tale of woe/outrage the fact that such stories are not readily available on social media makes me think this is mostly urban legend.

Not sure I understand, you think it's an urban legend that an insurance company will do what it can to avoid a payout especially when the incident involves unauthorized modifications to the electrical wiring of the house, which ended up triggering a fire? There's no need to cite firsthand accounts, you will find this in your own insurance contract. Insurance works pretty much the same everywhere, unauthorized modific…

> "you think it's an urban legend that an insurance company will do what it can to avoid a payout"

First-party claims, absolutely. Insurers want to pay when they are liable, and they don't want to pay when they are not. Your contract defines that, and your contract is written in plain English.

Insurers aren't out to get you, and the insurance industry doesn't rely on shafting people to make money. When you purchase insurance your policy is priced according to the exposure it creates, but a lot of people mistakenly assume that the insurer's profit comes from premium payments. It often doesn't. From what I have read, insurers are generally happy to break even on premiums vs. payouts. Their profit comes from investing the float and earning a return on those investments.

Related, I think that most people don't understand how tightly regulated insurance is, and how much it can suck for an insurer to improperly deny a claim. It creates huge legal and regulatory exposure for the insurer.

Re: The Amazing $1 Microcontroller (2017)

#193

Post by close04 »

fr0sty wrote: post #191
close04 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I understand, you think it's an urban legend that an insurance company will do what it can to avoid a payout especially when the incident involves unauthorized modifications to the electrical wiring of the house, which ended up triggering a fire? There's no need to cite firsthand accounts, you will find this in your own insurance contract. Insurance works pretty much the same everywhere, unauthorized modific…

I believe it is an urban legend that homeowner's insurance claims (specifically fire damage to structure or other contents) are being denied with any frequency because a 'homebrew' contraption was present in the home, adjacent to the start of the fire, or even the source of ignition. Here is a link to a sample Homeowner's policy: https://www.iii.org/sites/default/files/docs/pdf/HO3_sample.... Exclusion B on page 12 i…

Two things to consider:

1) The insurance company will more often than not sue the party responsible for the faulty workmanship that triggered the incident to recover the money (I've seen this happen). In this case the owner is that party.

2) One real example is enough to show it's not a legend and you provided it yourself:

> Some courts have upheld this rather cramped reading of the exclusion, while others construe it properly and require insurers to pay for the water damage

Since it's upheld in court I find your statement that it's an urban legend pretty confusing. It's like showing a picture of the night sky to prove the Sun is a myth.

YMMV of course, you should read your own contract to see what's stipulated and how comprehensive it is, and case law in your jurisdiction to see if courts would rule in your favor. But better be safe and start from the assumption that the "urban legend" is real since courts support it. It's the kind of legend that might cost you money.

Re: The Amazing $1 Microcontroller (2017)

#194

Post by close04 »

RealWorldPolice wrote: post #192
close04 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I understand, you think it's an urban legend that an insurance company will do what it can to avoid a payout especially when the incident involves unauthorized modifications to the electrical wiring of the house, which ended up triggering a fire? There's no need to cite firsthand accounts, you will find this in your own insurance contract. Insurance works pretty much the same everywhere, unauthorized modific…

> "you think it's an urban legend that an insurance company will do what it can to avoid a payout" First-party claims, absolutely. Insurers want to pay when they are liable, and they don't want to pay when they are not. Your contract defines that, and your contract is written in plain English. Insurers aren't out to get you, and the insurance industry doesn't rely on shafting people to make money. When you purchase i…

> Insurers aren't out to get you

Indeed they are not. They are out to maximize profit either by not paying out when possible (sometimes only if forced by the court), or by paying out and recovering the money from the party to blame for the damage (in this case also the owner). And as the links provided below show, many courts see it their way and consider that damage cause by faulty workmanship is not covered by insurance.

I've done my part, the court supporting my claim shows it's as real as it gets. If you want to support your claim that it's an urban legend all you have to do is show that this never actually happened.

Re: The Amazing $1 Microcontroller (2017)

#195

Post by fr0sty »

close04 wrote: post #193
fr0sty wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it is an urban legend that homeowner's insurance claims (specifically fire damage to structure or other contents) are being denied with any frequency because a 'homebrew' contraption was present in the home, adjacent to the start of the fire, or even the source of ignition. Here is a link to a sample Homeowner's policy: https://www.iii.org/sites/default/files/docs/pdf/HO3_sample.... Exclusion B on page 12 i…

Two things to consider: 1) The insurance company will more often than not sue the party responsible for the faulty workmanship that triggered the incident to recover the money (I've seen this happen). In this case the owner is that party. 2) One real example is enough to show it's not a legend and you provided it yourself: > Some courts have upheld this rather cramped reading of the exclusion, while others construe i…

Are you saying you know of an instance where an insurance company sued their own customer for accidentally burning down their own house? I'd like to know more about the particulars because that sounds like another urban legend.

Re: The Amazing $1 Microcontroller (2017)

#196

Post by fr0sty »

close04 wrote: post #194
RealWorldPolice wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "you think it's an urban legend that an insurance company will do what it can to avoid a payout" First-party claims, absolutely. Insurers want to pay when they are liable, and they don't want to pay when they are not. Your contract defines that, and your contract is written in plain English. Insurers aren't out to get you, and the insurance industry doesn't rely on shafting people to make money. When you purchase i…

> Insurers aren't out to get you Indeed they are not. They are out to maximize profit either by not paying out when possible (sometimes only if forced by the court), or by paying out and recovering the money from the party to blame for the damage (in this case also the owner). And as the links provided below show, many courts see it their way and consider that damage cause by faulty workmanship is not covered by insu…

The relevant court decision in that link related to faulty construction resulting in water incursion over months/years. I don't see how that is at all analogous to the scenario we have been discussing (DIY smart outlet malfunctions, house burns down).

https://www.robinskaplan.com/~/media/pdfs/uncrackable%20cons...

Re: The Amazing $1 Microcontroller (2017)

#197

Post by close04 »

fr0sty wrote: post #195
close04 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things to consider: 1) The insurance company will more often than not sue the party responsible for the faulty workmanship that triggered the incident to recover the money (I've seen this happen). In this case the owner is that party. 2) One real example is enough to show it's not a legend and you provided it yourself: > Some courts have upheld this rather cramped reading of the exclusion, while others construe i…

Are you saying you know of an instance where an insurance company sued their own customer for accidentally burning down their own house? I'd like to know more about the particulars because that sounds like another urban legend.

> that sounds like another urban legend

Another? Didn't we clear this one already above when your link showed courts upheld the "legend"? Are you contradicting me or the courts? Feels like you're no longer looking for any evidence, just grasping at straws.

Plenty of resources that tell you that it's perfectly possible to get no payout (depends on your contract of course)[0][1]. Or they will pay out but capped to a low figure [3]. Again, read your contract and decide what applies to you, pray there's no fineprint to screw you over.

[0] https://www.boss.info/us/consumer_warning/

> unauthorized modification of electrical wiring may void your homeowners fire insurance policy

[1] https://www.quora.com/Is-it-illegal-to-do-electrical-tasks-w...

> Most jurisdictions require a permit to be pulled for most electrical work

[3] https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeImprovement/comments/7vwe23/doe...

P.S. No, I do not know any cases where the owner was sued but I do know many cases where the insurance company payed out and then sued the company that did the faulty repairs to recover the entire payout. I also know one case where a faulty repair done by the owner caused a fire that injured the tenant - the owner was found guilty of recklessness/gross negligence (no idea about the insurance in that case).

Re: The Amazing $1 Microcontroller (2017)

#198

Post by painted »

neya wrote: post #49
83 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone building up some home automation I'd love to know how you are monitoring and controlling power. Remote power strips? Replacement outlets? Something diy?

Sure. Power monitoring is tricky. Rest are simple. Power monitoring involves converting the mains voltage to DC that is almost proportional to the mains voltage. Then you would rectify it and downsize it and get it to a voltage level that whatever power management IC you use can accept. You also need to include fuses and other safety circuitry to ensure it doesn't exceed that threshold your microcontroller can accept…

I prefer having the REST API running on a raspberry pi or a local server, that can proxy things to Google Cloud and back, just because in case something happens to the internet connection, your house is bricked, by having a local instance your system does not rely on your ISP for speed and availability.

I'd be curious of how do you update these devices, did you get OTA to work through an nRF24? did you need some external eeprom for that?

Re: The Amazing $1 Microcontroller (2017)

#199

Post by JimGreen5 »

83 wrote: post #171
ims wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your meter broadcasts your household energy usage, you may be able to use a ~$20 SDR dongle hooked up to a Raspberry Pi to read the kWh of the whole house several times per minute. There are some little tools that make this easy: https://github.com/bemasher/rtlamr You'll need to do a little detective work to separate yours out from the neighbors' but it's not hard. For my house, I can also read water usage and nat…

I've been considering getting an sdr, I think you've just pushed me over the edge - thanks! The dream however would be per outlet (or circuit) monitoring. Setting up alerts if wife leaves the hair straightener plugged in, fan left on, etc.

You can get them in allicdata https://www.allicdata.com/products.html
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