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After men in Spain got paternity leave, they wanted fewer kids

qz.com

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Re: After men in Spain got paternity leave, they wanted fewer kids

#21

Post by magduf »

skybrian wrote: post #7
lm28469 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's see how we handle going from a 4+:1 working:retired ratio to something closer to 1:1 though. It's very concerning, especially with all these "XX% of the population live pay-check to pay-check" articles. Up until now the whole system was relying on continuous growth to take care of the elderly (both physically and financially). It's a good thing in the long term, but it might suck big time short term wise.

I'm confused by your reference to people who live paycheck to paycheck. Shouldn't lower supply and higher demand for workers result in higher wages? At the same time, automation will result in lower demand. Hard to say which trend is more important. Combined, I would expect a lot fewer truck drivers and more healthcare workers.

>I'm confused by your reference to people who live paycheck to paycheck. Shouldn't lower supply and higher demand for workers result in higher wages? ... I would expect a lot fewer truck drivers and more healthcare workers.

Who's going to pay for the healthcare workers, if the old people don't have any savings or assets to pay them? If your answer is to tax the workers, that system will collapse if there's a 1:1 ratio of workers to retired people.

Re: After men in Spain got paternity leave, they wanted fewer kids

#23

Post by Kurtz79 »

magduf wrote: post #17
nickelcitymario wrote: post #9

While the idea of the article is entertaining, the data is ridiculous. 3 data points: '00, '05, and '10. The policy came into play in '07. Yet the downward trend was already visible in '05. It barely changed for '10. A more interesting (and honest) take of the data is in women's desire for more children. It was on a decline in '05, but ticked up sharply for '10. So if I was writing this, I would have said: "After men…

Here's my snarky theory about it: after men got paternity leave, they were forced to be at home and help with the child-rearing, which took some of the burden off the mothers. This made the mothers want more kids because now they didn't have to do so much work. However, now the men got to see firsthand what a pain in the ass kids are, instead of being able to relegate that work to their wives, so now they don't want…

That is basically what the articles is saying, although not in your terms.

"After paternity leave was instituted, surveys of Spanish men ages 21 to 40 showed they desired fewer children than before. Farré and González think that spending more time with their children—or the prospect of having to do so—may have made men more acutely aware of the effort and costs associated with childrearing, and, as the researchers put it, “shifted their preferences from child quantity to quality.”"

And also that that the data really cannot be used to demonstrate their point, so, whatever, another research that was able to generate a media article.

Re: After men in Spain got paternity leave, they wanted fewer kids

#24

Post by nickelcitymario »

magduf wrote: post #17
nickelcitymario wrote: post #9

While the idea of the article is entertaining, the data is ridiculous. 3 data points: '00, '05, and '10. The policy came into play in '07. Yet the downward trend was already visible in '05. It barely changed for '10. A more interesting (and honest) take of the data is in women's desire for more children. It was on a decline in '05, but ticked up sharply for '10. So if I was writing this, I would have said: "After men…

Here's my snarky theory about it: after men got paternity leave, they were forced to be at home and help with the child-rearing, which took some of the burden off the mothers. This made the mothers want more kids because now they didn't have to do so much work. However, now the men got to see firsthand what a pain in the ass kids are, instead of being able to relegate that work to their wives, so now they don't want…

The (very limited) data supports the first part of your theory.

The second part isn't supported by their data, since it shows the downward trend in men's desire for kids started years before the policy came into place.

Re: After men in Spain got paternity leave, they wanted fewer kids

#25

Post by roflchoppa2 »

dk1138 wrote: post #16

As a dad who has taken two 12w paternity, I realized a few things after the birth of my second child. • There was no limit to the amount of love I could give to my second child. • There was a limit of time and attention I could share with both children which I felt started to hamper my ability to share that love. • The logistics of a second child made everything take exponentially more time. Meals, transport, dressin…

You're not spacing them out correctly, you have to wait till the oldest one can help take care of the youngest one.

Re: After men in Spain got paternity leave, they wanted fewer kids

#26

Post by thevenkataswamy »

nickelcitymario wrote: post #9

While the idea of the article is entertaining, the data is ridiculous. 3 data points: '00, '05, and '10. The policy came into play in '07. Yet the downward trend was already visible in '05. It barely changed for '10. A more interesting (and honest) take of the data is in women's desire for more children. It was on a decline in '05, but ticked up sharply for '10. So if I was writing this, I would have said: "After men…

So glad someone mentioned this. There are probably some hidden variables explaining fatherhood preferences that have nothing to do with paternity leave. Desire for a child and birth-rates aren't exactly the same, but maybe the reasons for declining birth rates also explain the decline in desire for a child in this study?

https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate

Re: After men in Spain got paternity leave, they wanted fewer kids

#28

Post by pwinnski »

dk1138 wrote: post #16

As a dad who has taken two 12w paternity, I realized a few things after the birth of my second child. • There was no limit to the amount of love I could give to my second child. • There was a limit of time and attention I could share with both children which I felt started to hamper my ability to share that love. • The logistics of a second child made everything take exponentially more time. Meals, transport, dressin…

As father to three children, my experience is that you only think two is exponentially more complex than one. At least with two, they don't always outnumber you!

Re: After men in Spain got paternity leave, they wanted fewer kids

#29

Post by theonemind »

dk1138 wrote: post #16

As a dad who has taken two 12w paternity, I realized a few things after the birth of my second child. • There was no limit to the amount of love I could give to my second child. • There was a limit of time and attention I could share with both children which I felt started to hamper my ability to share that love. • The logistics of a second child made everything take exponentially more time. Meals, transport, dressin…

Reminds me of the Jim Gaffigan joke: “You know what it’s like having a fourth kid? Imagine you’re drowning, then someone hands you a baby.”

Re: After men in Spain got paternity leave, they wanted fewer kids

#30

Post by nvusuvu »

dk1138 wrote: post #16

As a dad who has taken two 12w paternity, I realized a few things after the birth of my second child. • There was no limit to the amount of love I could give to my second child. • There was a limit of time and attention I could share with both children which I felt started to hamper my ability to share that love. • The logistics of a second child made everything take exponentially more time. Meals, transport, dressin…

I feel ya. I have 5 kids. I love them all, but there is only so much time in a day. I believe the key to make the effort to have one-on-one time, be there when they really need you, and support their growth/development with active planning. I also believe strongly in the term 'benign neglect'. It's not my job to keep them entertained every waking minute. They need to explore, be bored, use their imaginations, read books, etc. We have nightly scripture study, weekly in-house movie night with pizza and/or popcorn, a monthly go-out-to-eat dinner (with lessons in manners constantly reiterated) , and an annual trip to the beach. Life is good!
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