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Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

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Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#231

Post by CydeWeys »

Insanity wrote: post #218
CydeWeys wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long do you need a house to last? 10,000 years? Wood that is protected from the environment will last essentially indefinitely on human timelines. The roof trusses on Notre Dame were 800 years old and showing no sign of stopping (modulo the lack of modern fire protection anyway). Protect wood from being exposed to the elements with a roof and siding and it'll last as long as you need it to. The wood in American h…

Well, the Notre Dame was renovated a few times but I do get your point. I do want to say that the main structure of the building is bricks :) It's surely cheaper and easier to use wood. my understanding was indeed that the wood was more exposed "to the elements". Of my concerns, the only one that remains and seems to be validated by other people is the insulation. So it'd be wasteful for energy. Perhaps you'll spend…

Fiberglass insulation is used inside exterior walls and makes them better insulating than brick. Major heat/cold losses are through windows, the same kinds of problems you have in brick buildings. Put in a good enough window (and seal the edges tightly) and you will do amazingly well with heat/cold.

And Notre Dame is made out of hewn stone blocks, not brick, which is a big difference. Brick isn't stone; it's just baked clay, which isn't as good. There are actual houses out there that are made out of hewn stone, and that's another thing entirely. My relatives live in a manor in Tuscany where the oldest part of the house is stone from the 14th century.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#232

Post by mcphage »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #75
delinka wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How are they going to even know? Because it's a non-standard key with print on it: "Property of X, not to be copied without permission" and because it's a non-standard key, to even get the blanks requires knowing whom to ask for permission to make copies. Think something like US Post Office box keys, or bank safe deposit keys.

"Property of X, not to be copied without permission" Not even that. The keys I was referring to have serial numbers and the blanks are strictly controlled. Only the owner of said serial numbers (usually represented by a card) can order copies directly from the manufacturer or their designated agents. Normal key copy shops wouldn't even have the blanks to furnish copies. I don't think that it's totally impossible to c…

> I don't think that it's totally impossible to copy such keys and it will be probably even be harder to prevent copys in the future (think 3d printing). But you can't have them copied by any old shoe maker with a key copy side business.

I remember a story recently about a secure luggage key. And every luggage lock was supposed to use it, but you weren't supposed to be able to get copies. But then a newspaper article printed a full-page image of the key, so... yeah, it got duplicated on a 3D printer that day: https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2015/09/11/tsa-master-lugga...

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#233

Post by lovich »

sailfast wrote: post #223
lovich wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A:the poster didn't mention feudalism B: >differing interpretations of property rights The American interpretation is authoritarian. Just because it has a negative connotation doesn't make it untrue. The landlords are renting out a dwelling for someone, and because they are the authority of that land they get to enforce rules on who has access to it. That is authoritarian

> But it probably comes down to cultural differences, America is very authoritarian. That has nothing to do with the property owner but "America" based on my read, but I do appreciate this interpretation of the OP. If that's their meaning, I could see why the word comes up.

You know, I think my interpretation was wrong after re-reading, but I dont think I would disagree still. America has a very strong cultural thread of authoritarianism. You see it in places like a cops word being given greater weight in court than a citizens, or how people treat rights as something the government has to give you rather than the government taking rights from you

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#234

Post by ergothus »

pjc50 wrote: post #23

The comments seem to be missing the two key aspects: accessibility and surveillance. The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. One of the claimants is 93 and lacks the manual dexterity to do that. On top of that, smart locks can report when you enter and exit your home to the landlord; and, if under the landlord control, can provide oth…

> The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone ....One of the claimants is 93 and lacks the manual dexterity to do that.

Forget manual dexterity, I'm 42 and I can't reliably assume my cellphone is charged, PARTICULARLY if I'm just getting home (the time it is most likely to be dead.

Comments below point out there is a bypass code, so my comment isn't so much about the in/justice as it is my inability to keep a charge.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#235

Post by NeedMoreTea »

CydeWeys wrote: post #231
Insanity wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the Notre Dame was renovated a few times but I do get your point. I do want to say that the main structure of the building is bricks :) It's surely cheaper and easier to use wood. my understanding was indeed that the wood was more exposed "to the elements". Of my concerns, the only one that remains and seems to be validated by other people is the insulation. So it'd be wasteful for energy. Perhaps you'll spend…

Fiberglass insulation is used inside exterior walls and makes them better insulating than brick. Major heat/cold losses are through windows, the same kinds of problems you have in brick buildings. Put in a good enough window (and seal the edges tightly) and you will do amazingly well with heat/cold. And Notre Dame is made out of hewn stone blocks, not brick, which is a big difference. Brick isn't stone; it's just bak…

There's plenty of brick built that are pushing 200. If engineering brick there's no reason they shouldn't last another 300+.

Very little built since the 60s is likely to reach that age. If humanity is serious about sustainability we have to learn to build to last once again.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#236

Post by daveFNbuck »

peeters wrote: post #229
Gaelan wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The smart lock requires you to have a charged, working smartphone that you can use in order to get into your own apartment. The landlord claimed (about half way down the article) that there was some sort of code that could be entered to open the door with no phone. Is that not the case?

Yeah that's a very material piece of the puzzle that seems intentionally buried: > Lisa Gallaudet, the landlords' attorney, said the smart lock was on a single door and that tenants were able to enter a numeric code to get in and didn't need an app. They'd also been offered codes they could enter without a phone. Whether that's an alternative depends on the implementation. If it's a code unique to the tenant that goe…

A tenant who isn't able to operate a smartphone may also be unable to remember and/or physically enter a numeric code.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#237

Post by 0xffff2 »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #51
Y_Y wrote: post #5

Most house locks are trivial to pick in about 30 seconds, and what I've seen of "smart" locks isn't much better. I think if you were really serious about preventing intruders (rather than discouraging opportunism) you need alarms and cameras and someone with a big stick.

Aren't security locks common over there? The typical night latch (Yale lock) is super easy to pick, but it wouldn't be easy to get UK insurance without a 5 or 7 lever Chubb lock, or one of the newer security locks. So pretty much everywhere has one - and quite often both. Newer doors tend to have multiple bolts in three places, operated by the single security key. Just a night latch might be used for internal doors,…

Maybe I'm just privileged enough that I've only lived in very safe areas, but I don't view home burglary as a serious threat. I've certainly never been asked by my insurance company what kind of locks I have on the doors.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#238

Post by 0xffff2 »

cesarb wrote: post #178
throwayEngineer wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running? I don't like carrying keys

Don't you carry at least an ID card? Most keys are much smaller than an ID card, taking the key out of the keyring and putting it together with the ID card would only make the resulting package a bit thicker.

Why would you carry ID when out for a run? When I was a regular runner I just had a loose (i.e. not on a key chain) copy of my house key that I took with me.

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#239

Post by dwyerm »

bilbo0s wrote: post #224
est31 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> charged, working smartphone Not just that, you also have to install a proprietary piece of software onto the phone from a third party and accept their TOS. > can provide other people with a pseudo-legitimate access to it I think in the news story the smart locks were only installed on the front door not on the doors to the homes. If the landlord installed them on the doors for the homes as well, that would be very…

> and accept their TOS... Money quote. People aren't thinking ahead here about what this opens you up to with respect to privacy loss. Think about the permissions on your phone such an app could ask for in the future. Now consider that if you don't grant them, you could potentially not get into your apartment. Smart locks are a cancer. We should cut them out early.

Yeah, I and bet that TOS includes a mandatory binding arbitration and class-action waiver. When the lock fails who is going to be held responsible?

Re: Tenants win right to physical keys over smart locks from landlords

#240

Post by zifnab06 »

hugi wrote: post #186
criley2 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI for Americans, it is generally illegal to change your locks and not provide the owner (or agent aka landlord) with a copy. It's their property, not yours, and depending on state/lease they have the right to have the locks drilled/replaced at YOUR expense because you are not allowed to lock an owner out of their property. There are only a few US states which have laws permitting tenants from changing locks and not…

In Iceland, if the owner of a rented apartment would request key access to his tenants apartment, well… That would be considered "batshit crazy". But it probably comes down to cultural differences, America is very authoritarian.

Where I live (Seattle), a landlord can enter your apartment immediately if there's an emergency (ie something like it's an apartment and the downstairs neighbor reports water leaking from the ceiling), or with two days (48 hours) notice. My current apartment does the second one twice a year for fire alarm testing and, well, that's been it.
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