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Ask YC: Why the degree?

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Ask YC: Why the degree?

#1

Post by matthewking »

I am a developer without a degree, I left school when I was 16, at which time id been programming for 2 years. I've studied several languages, worked for countless companies doing contract work, and been employed as a developer and lead developer full time.

I'm now 24.

I used to be very frustrated to see companies demanding degrees before they'll even talk to you for new developer positions. I have always put that down to the HR department that don't really know what they're doing when employing developers.

However, I'm sorry to see many startups that are employing developers in the early stage, are requiring that candidates have a degree.

For all the company knows, I (and countless others) could be the best developers they'd ever meet. And yet we're automatically excluded from even applying.

Why?

If/When I am employing developers, a degree won't even separate one candidate from another, as long as I judge both to be good developers, then they're on an equal standing.

I know several people that have degree's in computer science, and none have any magical abilities that you only pickup at university.

So what gives?

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#3

Post by bigtoga »

I don't have a degree either and I have to admit: when I was in my 20s, it bothered me too as I thought, "I might be missing out on something." Today though, running my own business, I see that it worked out perfectly. In my latest job posting (for a .NET/SQL dev), I wrote "A Computer Science degree is not required but helpful" because I don't equate degree to good code.

Joel Spolsky talks about this in his book and he prefers a degree or, if not a degree, evidence that the person had to go through some sort of highly selective process.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#5

Post by ideas101 »

the only degree that should matter is the quality of programming/coding a person can do - a degree certificate, which is basically a paper can not guarantee the quality of a hacker and his/her skills. The society has become way too demanding - also supply and demand is off-balance. situation in india is different than in north-america ... in USA/Canada i have seen that you can still survive without a degree but in india you just cant survive, in fact every other person (applying for a job) is a master degree holder - competition over there is crazy - but there are few entrepreneur who think out of the box - for example people behind the Zoho.com hire poor students from the high-school in a village, they then train them and within few months these high-school students become one of the best developers ... this is a must read interview "The Smartest Unknown Indian Entrepreneur": http://www.forbes.com/2008/02/22/mitra-zoho-india-tech-inter...

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#6

Post by matthewking »

bigtoga wrote: post #3

I don't have a degree either and I have to admit: when I was in my 20s, it bothered me too as I thought, "I might be missing out on something." Today though, running my own business, I see that it worked out perfectly. In my latest job posting (for a .NET/SQL dev), I wrote "A Computer Science degree is not required but helpful" because I don't equate degree to good code. Joel Spolsky talks about this in his book and…

Thanks. I guess in that case it can be an indicator that the person has some kind of skill.

Although I do have friends that have managed to get a degree in computer science and they still can't code unless they're copying from a book.

Is Joel's book based on employing people straight out of education? because presumably people that hadn't gone the degree route would have 2-3 years commercial experience by the time people the same age finish their degrees.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#7

Post by matthewking »

ideas101 wrote: post #5

the only degree that should matter is the quality of programming/coding a person can do - a degree certificate, which is basically a paper can not guarantee the quality of a hacker and his/her skills. The society has become way too demanding - also supply and demand is off-balance. situation in india is different than in north-america ... in USA/Canada i have seen that you can still survive without a degree but in in…

Thanks for the link, that's a good read.

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#8

Post by nickb »

It all comes down to energy required to make a decision. Degree acts as a quick filter. For example, having a degree in CS does not mean that you are a good programmer but what I, as an employer, know about a person with a degree is that they possess a certain level of knowledge and they have also proven themselves and have shown that they can focus and accomplish something.

If you think about it, those two things I listed are incredibly important. When you're swamped with 100 resumes and you can interview maybe 10 people, these little markers help employer make a decision. Now, that doesn't mean that a person without a degree doesn't have a chance... it just means that they will have to prove themselves in some other way (being famous coder/blogger/speaker helps there)...

Re: Ask YC: Why the degree?

#10

Post by yummyfajitas »

>For all the company knows, I (and countless others) could be the best developers they'd ever meet. And yet we're automatically excluded from even applying.

The game is about probability, not possibility. The assumption is:

P(qualified | degree) > P(qualified | no degree)

That's probably reasonable, since schools do filter out at least some idiots. To find a candidate, one must interview roughly 1/P candidates. If interview costs are high (e.g., face time is precious), you want as many easy filters as you can get.

This is especially true if you don't trust HR to properly find the "diamonds in the rough" (I certainly wouldn't).

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