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We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

blog.niteo.co

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Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#481

Post by downandout »

ginsuown wrote: post #480
downandout wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are indeed missing something. I am not defending them. But if they are doing something that PayPal hasn’t banned and obviously found acceptable for 12 previous years, it means that all businesses are in immediate danger of being instantly banned without explanation on the whim of any of thousands of PayPal employees. That is a huge problem, and should concern everyone that depends on them for payment processing.…

Ummm....no. As a software engineer, I can assure you there are not "thousands of PayPal employees" that can just ban businesses at will. I don't even think engineers working on that particular piece of software have any jurisdiction over that. Time and time again people post complaints that PayPal banned them "for no reason", without cause, etc, but invariably when you do your research, they have violated the TOS, an…

The issue here is that this company did not violate PayPal's TOS, yet they find themselves in this situation. BTW, I had a similar experience with PayPal, though my account was not open for 12 years. I didn't violate any TOS, and had no chargebacks - as in not a single one - and yet my account was effectively ghosted. I was handed a bunch of hoops to jump through, I jumped through them, and then nothing happened. The account sat in that state for so long that PayPal was eventually required by law to turn the money over to the state as abandoned. Only then was I able to get the money back - from the state treasurer (years after the fact).

So if your policy documents don't actually govern your policies, then employees are banning businesses based on their personal value judgments. That is problematic for a large number of reasons.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#482

Post by doctoboggan »

arielm wrote: post #414
astura wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you! After reading the story I headed to the comments to look for this exact comment! This story was super, super sketchy! The tell was it didn't at all mention the products or services they sell. Since any normal person would mention the products/services they sell front-and-center as key information to the story, I went ahead and assumed the problem was the products or services they offer were illegal/sketchy…

Same! And it’s definitely sketchy, but... PayPal could have at least pointed towards the clause in their terms that is being used for the rejection.

I am wondering why PayPal cares in this case? I had no idea what PBNs where before this thread, and I agree they are spammy and should be dealt with (by google presumably), why does PayPal see the need to ban this company? I assume PBNs aren't illegal, so PayPal wouldn't face legal jeopardy.

My guess is either Google is encouraging PayPal to do this ban or PayPal is afraid of some societal backlash if people realize they are profiting off of spam.

I am honestly happy they are attempting to limit spam, but just surprised they are harming their bottom line to do it.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#483

Post by astura »

mcv wrote: post #450
hunter2_ wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone should come up with a credit card that has a dynamic hard limit connected to a checking account balance. Paid daily, too, so the checking balance is almost always caught up. Seems like it would meet the needs of those people while letting them benefit from protections, rewards, etc. Any reason this couldn't work? Does it exist already?

> Someone should come up with a credit card that has a dynamic hard limit connected to a checking account balance. You mean a regular bank transaction card? Is that not something that exists in the US? I always find the American reliance on credit cards somewhat bizarre. Not having an alternative would explain it, I guess.

Debit cards exist but credit cards are often the better option if you're going to use plastic.

The problem with debit cards is because certain transactions aren't instant in the US if there's fraud on your debit card at just the right time then your rent check can bounce, your external transfers are returned, etc, and all that stuff comes with fees and headaches.

Credit cards also come with rewards whereas rewards on debit cards are rare and not as good if they exist. Credit cards usually have auxiliary benefits like (depending on the card) return protection, purchase protection, extended warranty, travel insurance, and more, whereas debit cards have nothing of the sort. THere's no interest due on credit cards if you pay your bill in full every month.

The problem with credit cards is, of course, you have the ability to spend more money than you have, and you can dig yourself into a hole if you don't use that power responsibly.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#484

Post by writepub »

gotland_ wrote: post #71

Don't know if it is the reason for the ban, but Niteos main product seems to be a service for creating spam networks. https://www.easyblognetworks.com , https://niteo.co/projects

And it took PayPal 12 years to flag their product as Spam? In any case, PayPal should be a payment processor, not a enforcer of arbitrary business standards, like tagging something as spam 12 years too late.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#485

Post by unreal37 »

doctoboggan wrote: post #482
arielm wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same! And it’s definitely sketchy, but... PayPal could have at least pointed towards the clause in their terms that is being used for the rejection.

I am wondering why PayPal cares in this case? I had no idea what PBNs where before this thread, and I agree they are spammy and should be dealt with (by google presumably), why does PayPal see the need to ban this company? I assume PBNs aren't illegal, so PayPal wouldn't face legal jeopardy. My guess is either Google is encouraging PayPal to do this ban or PayPal is afraid of some societal backlash if people realize…

It's deceptive and unethical. There should be no surprise that legitimate payment providers like PayPal and even Visa/Mastercard would not want to work with them.

PayPal also does not do business with many Porn Websites, which are generally legal.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#486

Post by ginsuown »

downandout wrote: post #481
ginsuown wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ummm....no. As a software engineer, I can assure you there are not "thousands of PayPal employees" that can just ban businesses at will. I don't even think engineers working on that particular piece of software have any jurisdiction over that. Time and time again people post complaints that PayPal banned them "for no reason", without cause, etc, but invariably when you do your research, they have violated the TOS, an…

The issue here is that this company did not violate PayPal's TOS, yet they find themselves in this situation. BTW, I had a similar experience with PayPal, though my account was not open for 12 years. I didn't violate any TOS, and had no chargebacks - as in not a single one - and yet my account was effectively ghosted. I was handed a bunch of hoops to jump through, I jumped through them, and then nothing happened. The…

> The issue here is that this company did not violate PayPal's TOS

Untrue. Often the exact breach is legally prohibited from being publicly shared, but if a company is banned, then a TOS breach has happened. There is an unbelievable amount of red tape and compliance within every process, both digital and human, that occurs with regards to money and transactions. Especially in the fintech space, PayPal internally is bound to governmental regulations and auditing far more strict than any regulations imposed on customers. To suggest that PayPal can just close accounts at whim for any other reason than enforcement of legally binding terms and confiscate customer funds is simply absurd.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#487

Post by downandout »

ginsuown wrote: post #486
downandout wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue here is that this company did not violate PayPal's TOS, yet they find themselves in this situation. BTW, I had a similar experience with PayPal, though my account was not open for 12 years. I didn't violate any TOS, and had no chargebacks - as in not a single one - and yet my account was effectively ghosted. I was handed a bunch of hoops to jump through, I jumped through them, and then nothing happened. The…

> The issue here is that this company did not violate PayPal's TOS Untrue. Often the exact breach is legally prohibited from being publicly shared, but if a company is banned, then a TOS breach has happened. There is an unbelievable amount of red tape and compliance within every process, both digital and human, that occurs with regards to money and transactions. Especially in the fintech space, PayPal internally is b…

First, no company is ever “legally prohibited” from telling you what specific section of the TOS they allege that you violated. Second, with regard to PayPal not closing accounts on a whim, it happens literally everyday. See http://www.paypalsucks.com/ and countless other sites like it. Even the BBB lists nearly 8300 complaints against PayPal in the last 3 years - https://www.bbb.org/us/ca/san-jose/profile/payment-processin...

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#488

Post by doctoboggan »

unreal37 wrote: post #485
doctoboggan wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am wondering why PayPal cares in this case? I had no idea what PBNs where before this thread, and I agree they are spammy and should be dealt with (by google presumably), why does PayPal see the need to ban this company? I assume PBNs aren't illegal, so PayPal wouldn't face legal jeopardy. My guess is either Google is encouraging PayPal to do this ban or PayPal is afraid of some societal backlash if people realize…

It's deceptive and unethical. There should be no surprise that legitimate payment providers like PayPal and even Visa/Mastercard would not want to work with them. PayPal also does not do business with many Porn Websites, which are generally legal.

Good point regarding porn websites being banned by PayPal. I guess it falls under my "societal backlash" reasoning.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#489

Post by astura »

marcosdumay wrote: post #430
lopatin wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "should void doing vigilantism", "monetary services must not hold opinions" That sounds like a very interesting idea, but how about this one? > "You must follow PayPal's terms and conditions or should expect to have your account terminated" Because that's how every payment processor in existence works. Don't like it? Use bitcoin.

If every payment processor worked like this, this story wouldn't be here.

Are you kidding me?

For one example, see American Express's Merchant Operating Guide

https://icm.aexp-static.com/Internet/NGMS/US_en/Images/Merch...

See section 10.2 Prohibited Merchants. There's a whole list of them. Here's a select few:

Multi-level Pyramid Sales, Prostitution, Payday Lenders, Timeshares, Gambling, Virtual Currency, Escort Services and Non-Licensed Massage Parlors, Mortgage Payments.

Re: We got banned from PayPal after 12 years of business

#490

Post by mcv »

astura wrote: post #483
mcv wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone should come up with a credit card that has a dynamic hard limit connected to a checking account balance. You mean a regular bank transaction card? Is that not something that exists in the US? I always find the American reliance on credit cards somewhat bizarre. Not having an alternative would explain it, I guess.

Debit cards exist but credit cards are often the better option if you're going to use plastic. The problem with debit cards is because certain transactions aren't instant in the US if there's fraud on your debit card at just the right time then your rent check can bounce, your external transfers are returned, etc, and all that stuff comes with fees and headaches. Credit cards also come with rewards whereas rewards on…

How likely is fraud on your debit card, though? On credit cards, it's trivial, because the number you need to authorise a transaction is prominently displayed on the card and needs to be shared with the merchant, all of which is of course horribly insecure.

Bank transaction cards in Netherland, presumably all of Europe, and I would hope the rest of the world, authorise the transaction in a reasonably secure[0] way between you and your bank, and the merchant only gets the money.

[0] The main insecure part is that keys are short, because they need to be memorised. But with modern automatically-blocking chip cards, there's no way to brute-force that as far as I'm aware.

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