Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#211

Post by SiempreViernes » Thu, May 09, 2019, 5:35 PM UTC

_0ffh wrote: post #88

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like those safe harbour laws in the US are at risk, at least in practice, as the idea of a content "conduit" begins being less plausible as platforms start moderating more and more. The way the US got the safe harbor to begin with was as follows. There was a court decision that essentially said that you weren't liable if you were just carrying bits, but if you did moderation then you were. The problem with t…

>The problem with this is obviously that you then either have to have no moderation at all or it has to be 100% perfect I'm not sure. You can let the users moderate themselves, then you're still just carrying bits. That's where a pluralistic organisation of the platform comes in handy. Things like Reddit or image boards are not just one community, but a plurality of communities. None of those suit you? Go ahead and o…

It wasn't long ago that it was shown that being host to a hateful sub community lead to overall higher levels of hate in unrelated communities.

You don't actually have this imagined separation you imply: hosting fatpeoplehate mean you impose a higher moderation burden on unrelated communities. And while the reason for this might be the principle of free speech, in practice you are only defending the act of hating fat people.

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#212

Post by vokep » Thu, May 09, 2019, 5:36 PM UTC

docker_up wrote: post #39

This sounds like a perfect reason why sites like LiveLeak exist. I don't know if I care that Facebook doesn't host videos that go against its TOS, but if sites like LiveLeak are forbidden from hosting these videos even though they want to, it would make me worried.

This.

Censor the mall (facebook, twitter) where families and your grandma hangout from stuff they would never want to see

But let the wild west (liveleak, 4chan, etc) stay wild.

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#213

Post by DuskStar » Thu, May 09, 2019, 5:58 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #161

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like those safe harbour laws in the US are at risk, at least in practice, as the idea of a content "conduit" begins being less plausible as platforms start moderating more and more. The way the US got the safe harbor to begin with was as follows. There was a court decision that essentially said that you weren't liable if you were just carrying bits, but if you did moderation then you were. The problem with t…

> There was a court decision ... Out of curiosity, what was the court decision? I've been thinking about this recently from the same perspective; that once you start allowing moderation then you should lose the shield of liability, but wasn't aware that this had been articulated by the courts previously.

The EFF has a good page on CDA 230 here [0]. The relevant court cases are the 1991 case 'Cubby, Inc. v. CompuServe, Inc' [1] and 1995's 'Stratton Oakmont, Inc. v. Prodigy Servs. Co.' [2]. In 'Cubby', CompuServe was found to have no liability for content hosted on their site as they did no moderation themselves, had no knowledge of specific content on their site, and were thus not a publisher. In 'Prodigy', Prodigy Services was found to have liability as their moderation practices were judged to make them the publisher of the content.

CDA 230 was the legislative response to this, allowing companies to not assume liability for moderating content.

0: https://www.eff.org/issues/cda230/legislative-history

1: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubby,_Inc._v._CompuServe_Inc.)

2: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratton_Oakmont,_Inc._v._Prod...)

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#214

Post by v_lisivka » Thu, May 09, 2019, 6:05 PM UTC

gdy wrote: post #208

v_lisivka wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These claims are not russophobic. We are at war with Russian Federation for 5 years. It's clearly demonstrates that we have no phobia. They are anti-russian. Please, list claims you are interested to dig in.

Are you aware that in the 2018 Russia is still the main trade partner of the Ukraine despite all russophobic noises coming from Kiev? It clearly contradicts your statement that Russia and the Ukraine are at war. I quoted the sentence that needs factual proofs.

Major trade partners of Ukraine in 2018 are: EU(import ~55%/export 45,1%), RF(import 14.3%, export: 7,3%), China(import 12.2%, export 4.3%), USA(import 5.4%/export 2.2%), and so on.

> It clearly contradicts your statement that Russia and the Ukraine are at war.

No, it displays inertia of two big and complex systems.

> I quoted the sentence that needs factual proofs.

You got them. The whole site is created by EU and dedicated to disproof Russian propaganda, with links to propaganda narratives and factual materials.

For example: https://euvsdisinfo.eu/figure-of-the-week-136000/

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#215

Post by gdy » Thu, May 09, 2019, 6:19 PM UTC

v_lisivka wrote: post #214

gdy wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you aware that in the 2018 Russia is still the main trade partner of the Ukraine despite all russophobic noises coming from Kiev? It clearly contradicts your statement that Russia and the Ukraine are at war. I quoted the sentence that needs factual proofs.

Major trade partners of Ukraine in 2018 are: EU(import ~55%/export 45,1%), RF(import 14.3%, export: 7,3%), China(import 12.2%, export 4.3%), USA(import 5.4%/export 2.2%), and so on. > It clearly contradicts your statement that Russia and the Ukraine are at war. No, it displays inertia of two big and complex systems. > I quoted the sentence that needs factual proofs. You got them. The whole site is created by EU and d…

EU is not a country.

"it displays inertia of two big and complex systems"

Yeah, right, I can imagine the US trading with Japan during the whole war. Oh, wait, no, actually, I cannot.

"You got them"

That is a lie. Even the link you gave doesn't have to do much with your statement.

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#216

Post by CodeMage » Thu, May 09, 2019, 6:21 PM UTC

marcosdumay wrote: post #195

gdy wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Many of us grew up believing we as Americans are exceptional, that we are inherently the good guys in any international conflict." Sounds like the USSR, only that we get rid of this delusion almost 30 years ago. Now it's slowly coming back thanks to the Russian government's propaganda, but it is still far from the present US level.

Sounds like any dictatorship ever. What is unsettling is that the US is clearly not a dictatorship (or at least, not like "any dictatorship ever"). It manages to stay reasonably democratic even with this and other dictatorship enabling mechanism (powerful Executive Power, heavy sectorial financing of the government, etc). On this point, they are exceptional.

It's definitely not a dictatorship, it's something a lot more insidious. It's a self-sustaining informal plutocracy that masquerades as a paragon of democracy.

I don't understand how people still believe the US is an exceptionally democratic country even after learning about how democracy is implemented here. The whole thing with Electoral College and two-party system is just the tip of the iceberg. For me, it was the revelation about the existence of riders [0] that was the final nail in the coffin of my belief in democracy.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rider_%28legislation%29

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#217

Post by CodeMage » Thu, May 09, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

navigatesol wrote: post #113

tracer4201 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a surprise. Many of us grew up believing we as Americans are exceptional, that we are inherently the good guys in any international conflict. The reality is our government has interests. Morality and interests are orthogonal, with the latter being influenced primarily by profits or some perceived direct or indirect threat to America’s elite.

> that we are inherently the good guys in any international conflict. How else could any human or organization function if not by acting in ways they believe are right? > The reality is our government has interests. The reality is everyone has interests. The "government" isn't some homogeneous entity pushing towards a single plan; it's an incredibly complex network of individuals. The nation isn't perfect, but does a…

>>that we are inherently the good guys in any international conflict.

>How else could any human or organization function if not by acting in ways they believe are right?

Being convinced that you're always right is not the same as doing the right thing or acting the right way.

>The nation isn't perfect, but does anyone really believe that, on net, America hasn't been a force for good in the world? What is your benchmark?

Hoo, boy. No, America hasn't been "a force for good in the world", because that's a really naive, simplistic idea. America has done many things in (and to) the world. Some of them have been good for certain groups of people at certain times.

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#218

Post by logicprog » Thu, May 09, 2019, 6:42 PM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #151

navigatesol wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that we are inherently the good guys in any international conflict. How else could any human or organization function if not by acting in ways they believe are right? > The reality is our government has interests. The reality is everyone has interests. The "government" isn't some homogeneous entity pushing towards a single plan; it's an incredibly complex network of individuals. The nation isn't perfect, but does a…

"The nation isn't perfect, but does anyone really believe that, on net, America hasn't been a force for good in the world?" Wow. You really never moved out of your bubble, did you? There are many people(not just IS extremists) who consider the US-Empire as plain evil. And much more who just think of US as arrogant, ignorant, self righteous bricks who try to enforce the american way of life on the whole world. And cov…

I see the word "empire" bandied about when discussing this subject a lot, and I'm never really sure what people mean by it. I mean, sure on the face of it you're correct, an "empire" according to various dictionaries is just an expansive amount of territory under a single rule, but it doesn't seem like that's what anyone really means when they say it. Otherwise, why aren't most countries empires? They have an "expansive" amount of territory by some definition. Or what about the EU? China? Russia?

What seems especially confusing to me is that "empire" has a very specific negative connotation but it's rarely out and out said what people who say "empire" actually think the US's crime is. I could imagine it to mean the way we treated Native Americans, but it doesn't seem like that's actually what's being talked about most of the time. Furthermore if we're talking just about global economic and cultural influence, that's voluntary(?) so the connotation meant doesn't work there.

What's the real deal here? What are we actually talking about?

And just to be clear I'm very much against US interventionalism but that doesn't constitute an empire... Or does it?

Also, openly destroying people for disagreeing with the "American Way Of Life" isn't something I've seen before. Are your referring to the Cold War, or stuff with the Middle East?

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#219

Post by logicprog » Thu, May 09, 2019, 6:49 PM UTC

pnongrata wrote: post #200

ionised wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems to me that when the US supported a dictatorship, the alternative wasn’t a thriving democracy but just another dictatorship aligned to a different power. You're free to think that if it helps you sleep at night. You would be mistaken though. Some may have been just as bad as those they were replacing, but considering many of them were democratically elected governments that the US chose to overthrow in favour…

Don't forget "economic warfare", where the US crushes its "enemiy countries" through painful sanctions, which always leaves the poorest portions of those countries in shambles. Not to mention the refugee crisis it creates, which in turn has the "pleasant" effect of lowering wages across the globe.

Wait, so the US is evil for not giving the benefits of it's economy to states it doesn't like/that dislike it? That seems really backwards-- how does anyone else have a right to the US's economy?

Even more, (if I understand your point correctly) the US is also evil for having a good economy and society that refugees want to flee to?

So the US is both evil for having a great economy available to people and also for not making that economy available to people? Is there any way to win besides just not having a good economy (and society)?

Is this just hating on the strong and successful because they are strong and successful?

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#220

Post by cowwithbeef » Thu, May 09, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

camochameleon wrote: post #68

TeMPOraL wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same experience being from and growing in Poland. I think I can give you a simple reason: Hollywood. Through movies and TV shows, America has been defining the mass culture for the past few decades, for almost the entire world.

This is very deliberate. From 1911 to 2017, 800+ films and 1100+ television shows have received backing from the Pentagon and the CIA [1]. Several films received major script changes, primarily to create a certain perception of the US military and intelligence agencies. [1] https://theconversation.com/washington-dcs-role-behind-the-s...

That's an interesting link you have there, but it feels like limited hangout. "Yeah we admit we routinely manipulated film and more, but only to paint ourselves in a favorable light."