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Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

theatlantic.com

201–210 of 243 posts

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#201

These tech companies decide, often in unison, to deplatform people, types of legal content, or political views. There is clearly coordination among news outlets, social media companies, and tech companies (everything from payment processors to web hosting). Who is doing this coordination? To what end? Is there a common thread in the deplatforming, smearing, and silencing campaigns?

> to deplatform people, types of legal content, or political views.

Who determines what is legal? What is legal in my country may not be in your's, and vice-versa. How do you decide what to show on an international media platform in such a case? Neither? Both? Let the user decide? What if my (your's) government won't let me (you) decide?

On political views, I'm not sure how to answer or correct this.

History has shown humanity that there are certain political views which are very "sticky", in the sense that they answer to something deeper in the human psyche in a way that with the right leader(s), they can create and sustain mass followings that can play host to violence and atrocity of a frightening scale against those who don't adhere to such political (or social) views.

Such political views have proven so horrifying, that certain parts of humanity has sought to stamp them out before they take hold again, to "nip them in the bud" before they even gain any kind of ground.

But the internet has proven to be fertile soil in which such views can hide and proliferate.

This is at odds with the want to allow freedom of speech and information. Such views are akin to "fighting words" or "yelling 'fire' in a theater" where such a danger doesn't exist. But they a honestly worse than that; in certain ways, such views can become and border on cultish and religious behaviour.

I could perhaps make parallels between a certain religion and a certain government of ancient times, but I'm sure you can see that (it was all politics, and it continues to play out to this day).

Is it better if we just let these views proliferate, let their political voice get louder, let them influence others until what was an atrocity committed by them becomes a lawfully executed act, as they gain political power and control? Do we just let these views and the people behind them grow and grow, until another world war ensues?

Because that's where it leads. We know this. We've seen it play out multiple times in the past. Which is why such wide "censorship" occurs.

At the same time, I don't know whether I really agree with it or not. Right now, it's considered legal because the internet is not considered a "place" or a "public sphere". It's just a bunch of interconnected privately owned networks for the most part, and we've voted in politicians (not everywhere or worldwide of course) that want and have kept it that way.

It's strange, here in the United States with the current federal government; the party mostly in power, or who came into power, put in place people in the FCC (Pai) who virtually killed off net neutrality, and also (Pai and long before him, via ALEC laws pandered to city/state governments, most in control by the same party) made it virtually impossible for "public internet", or even third-parties outside the almost monopoly of cable and telephone providers to give better or public service of the internet to people.

In other words, this party has lobbied and pulled the strings hard in order to keep the internet tightly and corporately controlled, fully private, blocking public access or "transport" on the lines.

Yet certain people of that same party are now complaining when views they espouse (or maybe silently agree with) are being "suppressed" due to market forces and such on that same private network.

It's a classic (and dumb) case of "wanting your cake and eating it too".

If they really wanted their views to be allowed freer reign, they should have pushed for full net neutrality and for public and open infrastructure for carrying broadband for everyone. Make it cheap, make it equitable, make it easy to access.

Unfortunately, they know this will also allow other views, potentially views they don't agree with, to also be voiced, and they don't want that, either.

Sigh.

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#202
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something like the Internet Archive?

Except nobody goes to the Internet Archive unless they're looking for something extremely specific. The benefit of Facebook as a platform is that you can reach a wide audience in a place where often going to the authorities means either jack squat or your incarceration or worse.

Sure.

I meant to say the Internet Archive can be used as the 'funded "journalism" archive' that GP mentioned.

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#203
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might not. Then again, aren't Twitter and Facebook essentially company towns in the online world? If they are so ubiquitous that you must join these platforms to participate in modern political debate, that seems pretty darn close to qualifying.

These platforms have became a sort of super states with citizens from all around the world. A single nation's definition of what is acceptable or not is hard to apply to the platform as a whole.

Does it need to be applied to the platform as a whole? I imagine they already target content based on geolocating the IP requesting the content. Even the ad tier status can be geo-specific.

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#204

What do people expect? Isn’t this uncharted territory for everyone? Everyone can report, but the public sphere where this happens is owned by a company which needs profit. Humanity was always insulated from what the worst that happened at that minute by the difficulty of transmitting information over older mediums. This means incentives are not aligned here - speaking the truth, keeping you engaged, and keeping Disne…

That should be the top comment on this thread.

> A person in the UK who wakes up in the morning doesn’t want to see evidence that South American violence has resulted in an entire village being eradicated.

And really, why should they? It's not like they can do anything over the issue. They can get the abstract news and go live their lives.

Yet, it's extremely important that some people get the evidence, and those are specific people, but distributed geographically and culturally so that I have no idea how to identify them.

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#205
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems unlikely to me that there is no coordination between left wing media institutions. They say the same things at the same time using the same language. I don't read much right-wing media. > I'm not saying there's a shadowy conspiracy (though I'm not ruling out people talking about "messaging" via email). It may be that they read each other's stuff and the demands of the 24 hour news cycle dictate that there'…

"The original implication was that a group behind the scenes of large organizations was coordinating them—not that journalists might communicate and share ideas." When complaining this is impossible or unlikely, you might want to google the term "Journo-list". It is a thing that is known to have happened, and the idea that one exists again today does not require too much suspension of disbelief, especially since much…

I did look it up because I hadn't heard of that group. Thanks for the reference.

It sounds like there is a larger story to tell about that than "see here is a secret hidden cabal of forces pulling the strings of journalists."

The very Wikipedia article on the subject outlines the active stories outing the list for some of their less-scrupulous conversations in publications like the Atlantic[0].

That sort of goes along with what I had been saying—there is no unified voice. I didn't say there were no bad actors—I clearly stated the press is far from perfect—which includes overzealous rabbling to the point of pressing professional ethics to a breaking point, and making an ugly display of it.

This group also was known to each other—they were not a massive conspiracy pulling the strings behind the outlets from the top-down.

These weren't professionals having their pockets lined to break ethical standards or push pre-decided stories. They were rabble-roused in isolated online communities. If anything, that's the part that sounds familiar now.

[0] https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/07/meet-th...

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly are you claiming is being censored? The media regularly investigates and reports on itself. The press is far from perfect, but you’re alleging a vast and deep conspiracy when reality is likely far simpler: The right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing. Sales and business have little impact on editorial. Editorial flies by the whims of a wide variety of strong personalities. Politicians and rele…

Journalists and the press has their self interest to protect too. That is why it is hard to take criticism of Facebook, Google, etc from them, because their criticism is tainted by conflict of interest. One does not go to the Pope to get an impartial view about atheism. I do not say that what Atlantic/NY times/etc says on this topic is without value. Only that what they say should not be regarded as final or defeniti…

> Only that what they say should not be regarded as final or defenitive word, rather only as claims in argument.

I'd agree with that.

It's the claim that they're in on a massive conspiracy because of a select set of articles on the subject is the line I've taken to issue.

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#207
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“First everyone goes crazy that people can find stuff on these platforms, ” I don’t. I get crazy when effectively censor at the behest of (any) government under the “we’re private” excuse. I’m perfectly consistent about this. That and our imperative need to break apart the big tech companies (and bank, but that’s a different question)

> I get crazy when effectively censor at the behest of (any) government under the “we’re private” excuse. It's depressing how quickly people are willing to throw away the civil and human rights that have taken millennia to win. Let's hope it doesn't take actual violence to remind people of the difference between speech and violence. We haven't had real physical strife and a world war in our generation to keep this di…

> We haven't had real physical strife

Perhaps not in the west. There has been significant physical strife for millions of people in Africa and the middle east for some time that shows no real sign of ending any time soon.

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#208
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could have as well given a link to google.com. You have made several specific russophobic claims and I challenge you to substatiate them and not leave that as 'an exercise for the reader'.

These claims are not russophobic. We are at war with Russian Federation for 5 years. It's clearly demonstrates that we have no phobia. They are anti-russian. Please, list claims you are interested to dig in.

Are you aware that in the 2018 Russia is still the main trade partner of the Ukraine despite all russophobic noises coming from Kiev?

It clearly contradicts your statement that Russia and the Ukraine are at war.

I quoted the sentence that needs factual proofs.

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#209
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. If your evidence for war crimes is Twitter, there's a problem. And the problem is not Twitter. Twitter and Facebook posts should not be evidence of anything. That stuff is so easily faked that courts would be entirely right to laugh such "evidence" out of the courtroom. Evidence should be gathered by appropriate authorities and kept in accordance with international standards on evidence storage. Hint: That's no…

Do you know who Rodney King is? Which appropriate authorities investigated his beating?

Excellent example. When we're blowing the whistle on our own authorities, we turn to out community.

Private firms have coopted our communities, but they are not beholden to our welfare.

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#210

These platforms can do no right. If Facebook/Youtube leave a video online of a beheading of John Smith from then inevitably calls them out for promoting and hosting this "illegal" content. Now, they're being chastised for taking it down too. Maybe, just maybe, these companies have internal processes for handing over such materials to the relevant authorities, and don't need to rely on armchair detectives to investiga…

>These platforms can do no right.

Yes they can. Easily. Separate the part of the business that does content hosting and other technical services from the part of the business that's effectively a scaled up editorial board (curated recommendation service) into separate companies. Allow anyone to access the same services/data for the same fees so that people can get their own data and create alternative presentations. This will disentangle responsibilities, remove conflicts of interest and allow for real competition.

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