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Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

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Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#151

Post by hutzlibu »

navigatesol wrote: post #113
tracer4201 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a surprise. Many of us grew up believing we as Americans are exceptional, that we are inherently the good guys in any international conflict. The reality is our government has interests. Morality and interests are orthogonal, with the latter being influenced primarily by profits or some perceived direct or indirect threat to America’s elite.

> that we are inherently the good guys in any international conflict. How else could any human or organization function if not by acting in ways they believe are right? > The reality is our government has interests. The reality is everyone has interests. The "government" isn't some homogeneous entity pushing towards a single plan; it's an incredibly complex network of individuals. The nation isn't perfect, but does a…

"The nation isn't perfect, but does anyone really believe that, on net, America hasn't been a force for good in the world?"

Wow. You really never moved out of your bubble, did you?

There are many people(not just IS extremists) who consider the US-Empire as plain evil.

And much more who just think of US as arrogant, ignorant, self righteous bricks who try to enforce the american way of life on the whole world. And covertly or openly destroy anyone who opposes.

Now I am not that extreme, in my view and I actually think that good or bad, all in all, probably yes, but there is too much truth in the accusation. And you proved the ignorant part very well.

(btw. technology and science are the things that do the net good for me ... but politicaly, hell no. Just another empire posing as nice to go after selfish motives. Nicer than other empires maybe but still a empire)

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#152

Post by primroot »

ionised wrote: post #125
navigatesol wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that we are inherently the good guys in any international conflict. How else could any human or organization function if not by acting in ways they believe are right? > The reality is our government has interests. The reality is everyone has interests. The "government" isn't some homogeneous entity pushing towards a single plan; it's an incredibly complex network of individuals. The nation isn't perfect, but does a…

> The nation isn't perfect, but does anyone really believe that, on net, America hasn't been a force for good in the world? What is your benchmark? Lots of people all over the world who have been on the receiving end of US military or economic aggression enacted in the interests of the US plutocrats. African Americans, Native Americans, most of South America, pretty much all of the Middle East and North Africa, anyon…

Abusing its power to exceptionally shield itself from international justice, while at the same time practicing extraterritorial judicial reach, is also not a good sign of being a net force for good.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-icc/u-s-imposes-visa-... https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2009/0213/p05s01-woeu...

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#153

Post by phatfish »

leftyted wrote: post #149
52-6F-62 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Granted, but what’s being implied and not said outright is that those people are somehow influencing entire organizations of strong-willed career professionals and not just given their own post to say what they want alongside the rest. I’m asserting the latter is usually what’s happening. Over the past 100 years there have been many times where North American governments have attempted to rule over the press. That ne…

It seems unlikely to me that there is no coordination between left wing media institutions. They say the same things at the same time using the same language. I don't read much right-wing media. I'm not saying there's a shadowy conspiracy (though I'm not ruling out people talking about "messaging" via email). It may be that they read each other's stuff and the demands of the 24 hour news cycle dictate that there's a…

In many cases the censorship is carried out by a 3rd party company setup in a low wage location where someone with their own biases, religious convections and influence of their own society moderates content for the west.

The tech giants don't want anything to do with it because it means employing 1000's of extra people and the costs that go with that. So it just gets contracted out to the the lowest bidder.

It can't all be automated yet, not some machine learning algorithm dreamt up be Facebook is any better of a prospect.

This is the problem with the black box of the multinational corporation deciding what is moral or acceptable with no oversight by the government.

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#154

Post by ionised »

primroot wrote: post #152
ionised wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The nation isn't perfect, but does anyone really believe that, on net, America hasn't been a force for good in the world? What is your benchmark? Lots of people all over the world who have been on the receiving end of US military or economic aggression enacted in the interests of the US plutocrats. African Americans, Native Americans, most of South America, pretty much all of the Middle East and North Africa, anyon…

Abusing its power to exceptionally shield itself from international justice, while at the same time practicing extraterritorial judicial reach, is also not a good sign of being a net force for good. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-icc/u-s-imposes-visa-... https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2009/0213/p05s01-woeu...

Plus, as a nation it meets its own definition of a rogue state.

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#156

Post by [deleted] »

navigatesol wrote: post #113
tracer4201 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a surprise. Many of us grew up believing we as Americans are exceptional, that we are inherently the good guys in any international conflict. The reality is our government has interests. Morality and interests are orthogonal, with the latter being influenced primarily by profits or some perceived direct or indirect threat to America’s elite.

> that we are inherently the good guys in any international conflict. How else could any human or organization function if not by acting in ways they believe are right? > The reality is our government has interests. The reality is everyone has interests. The "government" isn't some homogeneous entity pushing towards a single plan; it's an incredibly complex network of individuals. The nation isn't perfect, but does a…

[deleted]

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#157

Post by ionised »

refurb wrote: post #146
ionised wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The nation isn't perfect, but does anyone really believe that, on net, America hasn't been a force for good in the world? What is your benchmark? Lots of people all over the world who have been on the receiving end of US military or economic aggression enacted in the interests of the US plutocrats. African Americans, Native Americans, most of South America, pretty much all of the Middle East and North Africa, anyon…

On balance has done more damage? Do you believe that in the countries where the US has intervened that without US involvement things would be that much better? Seems to me that when the US supported a dictatorship, the alternative wasn’t a thriving democracy but just another dictatorship aligned to a different power.

> Seems to me that when the US supported a dictatorship, the alternative wasn’t a thriving democracy but just another dictatorship aligned to a different power.

You're free to think that if it helps you sleep at night.

You would be mistaken though. Some may have been just as bad as those they were replacing, but considering many of them were democratically elected governments that the US chose to overthrow in favour of a US-friendly despot, Id suggest you revisit your theory.

Iran is a great example.

Want to know why they keep chanting death to America? They used to have a fairly open and liberal society (relative to what they have now) until the US decided that one of their own guys was better suited to run the country instead of the democratically-elected Mossadegh.

That was the Shah, who was eventually overthrown by a populist religious movement, which was a direct response to US bullying and the US-backed regime.

And Americans wonder why Iran has a grudge against the US.

Then you have Iraq, which decided it wanted to start trading oil in Euros instead of the dollar. The US doesn't like that, so they invaded and destabilised the entire region for decades, giving rise to the likes of Isis.

Think whatever you wish of Hussein and the Ba'athists, they were terrible men, but they never caused the kind of region-wide instability that the US caused due to its own greed. Instability that had domino effects on a large part of the world but never reached US shores.

And now the US is talking tough about Iran all over again as if they are next on the list to be invaded, all the while cosying up to inbred, mass-murdering monarchs in Saudi Arabia.

Similar stories abound in Central and South America, and not just by US intelligence or military. US corporations have long been involved in violent crackdowns on labour movements in South America, some of which involved these American companies hiring militants to harass, intimidate and even murder dissenters.

Plus the fact that the country was founded by slave-owners and plutocrats for the sake of themselves, and they consolidated those foundations with the blood of every Native tribe they tricked, deceived, starved, murdered and exterminated.

The United States is a testament to its own hypocrisy and greed, just like the British Empire. A highly militaristic, expansionist empire that worships at the altar of Mammon.

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#158

Post by 52-6F-62 »

leftyted wrote: post #149
52-6F-62 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Granted, but what’s being implied and not said outright is that those people are somehow influencing entire organizations of strong-willed career professionals and not just given their own post to say what they want alongside the rest. I’m asserting the latter is usually what’s happening. Over the past 100 years there have been many times where North American governments have attempted to rule over the press. That ne…

It seems unlikely to me that there is no coordination between left wing media institutions. They say the same things at the same time using the same language. I don't read much right-wing media. I'm not saying there's a shadowy conspiracy (though I'm not ruling out people talking about "messaging" via email). It may be that they read each other's stuff and the demands of the 24 hour news cycle dictate that there's a…

> It seems unlikely to me that there is no coordination between left wing media institutions. They say the same things at the same time using the same language. I don't read much right-wing media.

> I'm not saying there's a shadowy conspiracy (though I'm not ruling out people talking about "messaging" via email). It may be that they read each other's stuff and the demands of the 24 hour news cycle dictate that there's a certain amount of cross pollination and regurgitation.

There is a difference between being a part of a zeitgeist, and actively conspiring to brainwash people.

The original implication was that a group behind the scenes of large organizations was coordinating them—not that journalists might communicate and share ideas.

They also do regularly read each other's work. Many articles are written in response to others. That is not a new feature in North American press.

> I think it's unknown to what degree American intelligence agencies influence the media but I'm willing to bet it's "more than not at all". It may be relatively benign stuff ("Don't use the term 'Islamic terrorism,' Al Qaeda uses that stuff to propagandize") or it may be not so benign.

That just opens the door for anyone to insert whatever they like, though. That's the sensationalist take I was trying to tone down with my post. It's coming out of thin air.

> I agree with the original poster. It's absurd that the left-wing media has been agitating for censorship of "hate" and then complaining when "evidence of war crimes" is deleted. There's been shockingly little mainstream questioning of just how quixotic it is to try to "remove hate".

Again, to this point, the media/press (and in your words specifically the "left-wing" media) is not a uniform entity and doesn't operate as one. What you're seeing are effects, not causes.

As for the rest—I'm not sure what the solution is yet. It's a tough problem, and definitely a nuanced one. I was only commenting on the conspiracy theories coming out of nowhere on a forum that usually prides itself on empiricism and facts.

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#159

Post by caprese »

djakjxnanjak wrote: post #10
differentView wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not in the war crime evidence storage market.

Facebook disseminates propaganda: war crime! Facebook deletes evidence of atrocities: war crime!

Yes thats the point

Make it impossible for them to operate in this market

Re: Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes

#160

Post by dillonmckay »

phatfish wrote: post #153
leftyted wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems unlikely to me that there is no coordination between left wing media institutions. They say the same things at the same time using the same language. I don't read much right-wing media. I'm not saying there's a shadowy conspiracy (though I'm not ruling out people talking about "messaging" via email). It may be that they read each other's stuff and the demands of the 24 hour news cycle dictate that there's a…

In many cases the censorship is carried out by a 3rd party company setup in a low wage location where someone with their own biases, religious convections and influence of their own society moderates content for the west. The tech giants don't want anything to do with it because it means employing 1000's of extra people and the costs that go with that. So it just gets contracted out to the the lowest bidder. It can't…

Surely they have enough income to hire thousands of US based moderators at a living wage, and moderators for other countries, too.

The relative ethics is the biggest issue, to me.

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