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What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

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Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#411
post #325
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mid 30s, same, and my k-12 experience wasn't even bad . I wasn't really bullied. I was popular enough, and moved between a few different friend groups, some of them semi-cool (though one of the nerdier groups was my "home"). School's just that traumatic, I guess. I worry about that for my kids. Unlike an adult, if you're in an environment that's making your life hell (and normal school life is friggin' intolerable, f…

Children live in a more violent environment than adults do. As an adult I have never been physically assaulted, yet in school I was assaulted all the time. If an adult were to be assaulted by a random stranger, there's a good chance the "bully" would get beaten up (or in America, shot). Any adult stupid enough to randomly assault other adults is likely to spend a long time as a ward of the state, until they learn not…

Assault is already a crime. Why not just involve the police when students commit it?

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#412
post #102

I was totally onboard with this article until the last sentence. I was enjoying this article as an exploration of emotional vulnerability, the connection between beliefs and belonging, the mixed blessing of internet anonimity. But if the (suspiciously articulate) kid goes from alt-right to antifa, I don't think that's any sort of progress to be applauded. I interpreted the article's point to be that alt-right is just…

Excellent, excellent points. Antifa members are often just a sick with fears, insecurities, and vengeance, as alt-right members. They are both peddlers of resentment, just run by different priests, and aimed at different enemies. Self-examination, getting beneath the ideologies and down at the underlying emotional content motivating their hosts is the only productive path to dialog and growth I've encountered so far.

For me the most interesting thing is when the Anfifa and the Alt-right actually join together to attack the state in some cases.

As an example, the Yellow Vest movement where both extremes go around destroying public property and engaging in violence against the moderates.

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#413
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of this story https://expo.oregonlive.com/news/erry-2018/06/75f0f464cb3367... (audio) http://snapjudgment.org/no-one-calls-me-shooter-0 It's basically an autistic kid who was falsely accused by an Oregon public HS of being a potential gunman. All of this based on a vague offhand comment by a random student. The school and police refused to provide details until a few years later. When the school released t…

Your story reminds me of something that happened to me in high-school. I registered for a challenge english class. I lasted about two weeks because of a strange grading policy the teacher chose. If you didn't turn in ANY assignment, regardless how few points it was worth, your grade in the class would be set at a hard F. If you wanted to pass, you had to turn in assignments late. She'd give you a zero for the late as…

I had only two horrible teachers to be honest, so i consider myself lucky.

One was in both primary and middle high, the other was at my university.

First one basically stripped me of my ability to count big numbers in my head - i could multiply and divide 4-5 digit numbers easily. She just didn't believe it and marked everything as failure unless I've written down everything step by step.

Latter on she was my chemistry teacher - average grade for my class was just one mark above failure. When we got new teacher i could score top grades easily - not because she was more lenient at grading - but she actually could convey her knowledge.

At university we had a numeric methods teacher who didn't grade the method, but the result. a single mistake in writing things down resulted in a failure of whole assignment. We never did any theory, just did everything by hand. Thankfully numeric method teacher at my masters was way way better - he was actually teaching us.

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't homeschool social skills though.

Humanity was socializing long before public schools existed, and by no means does the present public school system have a monopoly on teaching social skills. Statistically, home schools produce outstanding educational outcomes compared to public schools on standardized tests, so public education proponents insist that they compensate for this by providing better "socialization". This claim is conveniently difficult t…

English isn't my first language, so I naturally thought of homeschooling as keeping kids at home during the day while others are at school. If kids do social activities outside the home during "homeschooling" then that's obviously different than the type of homeschooling where the kids only interact with their guardian(s)/teacher(s).

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#416
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Students who engage in serious misconduct, or repeated disruptive conduct will be “counseled out.” But private schools are generally small, closed communities, which creates a high level of trust and allows routine misunderstandings and disputes to be resolved reasonably. Also, there are strong disincentives to “going nuclear” for both the school and the parents. The schools obviously stand to lose revenue, but the p…

As shared by a friend of mine recently: Well, my kid screwed up! She took a multitool to school. It has a knife blade. I'm sure every student will go home and tell their parents that someone had a knife at school. Which is true, and only part of the story. I am glad she is at a private school, where she was only suspended for the day, vs at a public school with an onduty police officer, where she would have been form…

Wait.. there are resident police officers in schools in USA?!

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#417
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most of Europe WW2 was just a terrible ordeal. In Germany it's a source of great shame. But the US? WW2 was the making of modern America. The US was catapulted into a world leader position, and got to feel like a badass hero doing it. And WW2 was the US's first major overseas conflict. Nazis are the archetypical "enemy without".

Great comment, but aren't you overlooking WWI? Phillipines? etc. There was even an anti-imperialist movement in the US before WWI.

Damn, you're right. WW1 was certainly a major international conflict. Scratch that bit.

It does offer a useful comparison though. In WW1 there were no cartoonishly evil baddies, just a bunch of pointless deaths. It didn't devastate a civilian population, either - nobody got to feel like a hero, there were no joyful liberations. WW2 was a righteous war (that also happened to be an economic goldmine). That permanently shifted American culture (and killed isolationism stone dead). So Nazis became THE enemy - the Lucifer to America's new God complex.

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#418
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably the author & son are alluding to the middle-aged man holding the poster, which I should hope is obviously nowhere near the same as antifa.

Well, I don't know if I think a middle-aged man who goes to a rally to hold up a sign saying "NO TRUMP. NO KKK. NO FASCIST USA," is progress over the alt-right. To me it's the exact same thing -- an overly zealous person who takes politics as a tribal game and has no sincere intention of changing anybody's mind.

This is hilarious. You couldn't get any more on-brand for Hacker News without suggesting that someone rewrite the kernel in Rust.

The people at this rally almost certainly supported Trump, and at least some of them supported fascism. As such, a slogan condemning Trump alongside fascists is totally reasonable, even if it wouldn't necessarily be in other contexts. (And if you think that someone carrying a nazi flag doesn't really believe the message, well, the burden of proof is on you).

Politics, by the way, is a tribal game. Almost everyone develops their beliefs primarily based on those of the people in their community or communities. For example, the belief that "holding an anti-Trump sign is just as bad as holding a Nazi flag, because both of them passionately express opinions" is basically non-existent outside of the Hacker News-reading demographic, but one which I've seen expressed here fairly often. That's not because HN readers are smarter than everyone else: it's because people tend towards the opinions that they're exposed to in their communities, and the rules of Hacker News effectively mandate impassioned centrism, so that's the ideology of the Hacker News tribe. If you think you're immune to tribalism, you're wrong, in the same way that if you think you're immune to confirmation bias, you're wrong.

Visibility is much more important to influencing people than good arguments or sincere intentions. For example, five years ago, I was aware of the arguments for open borders, but I didn't publicly advocate for them, nor did I have a particularly strong opinion on the matter. That's because back then, there was very little public discussion of the issue. Now that I've met other people who are pushing for open borders (probably in response to Trump), I consider it to be one of the most important issues that I care about. That's just how humans work. That's the reason that people advocate for their views in highly visible ways, like protests. The point isn't to convince your enemies, it's to bring out the people on your side.

John, who derives all his beliefs from careful research and pure reason, gets just as many votes as Bob, who likes Trump because he triggers the libtards. Actually, I suspect that Bob will get more, because half the time, people like John don't actually vote. You can talk as if you're above the rabble all you like, but in Democracy, it's their opinions that matter, and if you take politics seriously at all, it's them that you have to reach. Going out in the real world carrying signs, shouting, blocking traffic, throwing bricks, and maybe getting arrested is the best known way to get your message out, even if it offends your sensibilities.

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#419
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As shared by a friend of mine recently: Well, my kid screwed up! She took a multitool to school. It has a knife blade. I'm sure every student will go home and tell their parents that someone had a knife at school. Which is true, and only part of the story. I am glad she is at a private school, where she was only suspended for the day, vs at a public school with an onduty police officer, where she would have been form…

Wait.. there are resident police officers in schools in USA?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_resource_officer

> In the late 1990s, SRO presence on campuses again increased after the Department of Justice created a $750 million grant program, Cops in School, to hire over 6,500 SROs.

https://txssc.txstate.edu/topics/law-enforcement/articles/br...

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#420
post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great comment, but aren't you overlooking WWI? Phillipines? etc. There was even an anti-imperialist movement in the US before WWI.

Damn, you're right. WW1 was certainly a major international conflict. Scratch that bit. It does offer a useful comparison though. In WW1 there were no cartoonishly evil baddies, just a bunch of pointless deaths. It didn't devastate a civilian population, either - nobody got to feel like a hero, there were no joyful liberations. WW2 was a righteous war (that also happened to be an economic goldmine). That permanently…

The Germans were cast as, if anything, even more evil characters in the WW1-era propaganda than they were in WW2. A series of atrocities in the opening phase of the war while the German armies were marching through Belgium were widely reported and inflated into stories of raping nuns and bayonetting babies.

In contrast, the full scale of the horrors of the Nazi regime were not widely known until the final days of WW2.

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