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What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

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Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#371
post #58
post #13

> He would be offline for a month and would need other mods to cover for him. To ask for help, he had to out himself as a kid. I wonder to what extent the alt-right actually is a young teen movement, with adults mixed in (being the ones who show in person). Is there any at least semi-reliable data on this?

I've watched the so-called alt-right develop online over the past 2-3 decades. Usenet, Live Journal, Encyclopedia Dramatica, the chans, etc. At least at the start, it was mostly about trolling and lulz. The anger of TFWNG. But somehow it's been captured by the actual right wing. That's frightening. There's a lotta young male angst out there.

This is a bit tangential, but you sharing your experience with the term before it became widely-known reminds me of something interesting about the way we group and label ideologies.

I still remember 5+ years ago having periodic exposure to the term alt-right and having it more or less exclusively refer to relatively languid writings like Mencius Moldbug and NRx[1], in sharp contrast to the rowdier, meme-ier aesthetic it has today (eg /r/The_donald, from what little I've seen of it). I didn't see it come to refer to white-supremacy and other more well-known forms of the far-right until Hillary Clinton made the term a household name. After that point of course, it was a self-fulfilling Schelling point that coalesced around what she said it was: white supremacists et al flocked to it, and everyone not willing to be associated with them had to stop associating with the term, now that "everyone knew" what it referred to. Fascinating dynamic.

(Not that I'm suggesting that she created the movement, but rather that from my skewed sample, it seems that she made the _term_ well-defined, by bringing it into the limelight).

OTOH, this may have been a consequence of the fact that I had little exposure to chan or white supremacist subcultures et al and lots of exposure to often-iconoclastic longform blogs talking about every random topic, including politics. It's entirely possible that my sample of encounters with the term describes my filter more than it does the term.

It's a fascinating window into language, to see a term become widely-known, and by doing so, change its meaning. It's particularly interesting that it's difficult to know how close to how far off you were in your role as one of the proverbial blind men touching the elephant. Thanks for sharing your data point!

[1] I'm referring to the aesthetic and energy here, not the content, which wasn't quite "languid..".

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#372

What resonated with me is how impossible it is, as a kid, to make sense of being in the school system. The interaction with an administrator was school discipline gone awry... but it could have easily been something else. (Discipline is the most likely, there are tons of misguided zero-tolerance policies.) I'm lucky that my parents were advocates and organizers and that they knew people in the school administration.…

It really feels to me as if a lot of teachers join the profession only because they are power-hungry and want some powerless kids to abuse, something like an authority complex. We had teachers at our school print low quality invitations to an event for the students and high quality ones for the teachers. We also had a kid that was expelled from school for insulting a teacher after the teacher insulted him much more heavily first. Every single person that I have talked to had at least four extremely crappy teachers while at school.

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#373
post #369

America is going crazy, and it's spreading its madness around the world. Sorry for the blanket statement, but from an European perspective, the US really seems to go crazy.

There's a resurgence of alt-right parties in Europe; this isn't just a US thing. I bet there are European Kekistanis just like this boy, but that just proves politics doesn't care about borders now that everything's online.

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I define "fascist" much as Ian Danskin does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Luu1Beb8ng&list=PLJA_jUddXv... Its critical aspects include inherent beliefs of racial superiority and the need to "recapture" a great society lost. And there are plenty on YouTube with large followings. Though some have been banned since. Chud Supreme Carl, "Sargon of Akkad", comes to mind as an example, and one I'm willing to namedrop bec…

> I define "fascist" I'm sorry, but you don't get to do that! `fascism` already has an established meaning. Please make up a new word for what you believe `fascism` means. Going by the dictionary definition: > 1. a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatori…

> I'm sorry, but you don't get to do that! `fascism` already has an established meaning. Please make up a new word for what you believe `fascism` means

I see your point, but honestly, that's not how language work. Changes in meaning over time are not so uncommon, and "fascist" has been used in a loose sense for years (at least in Italian), but looking at Wikipedia this holds for English too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#375
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mid 30s, same, and my k-12 experience wasn't even bad . I wasn't really bullied. I was popular enough, and moved between a few different friend groups, some of them semi-cool (though one of the nerdier groups was my "home"). School's just that traumatic, I guess. I worry about that for my kids. Unlike an adult, if you're in an environment that's making your life hell (and normal school life is friggin' intolerable, f…

It makes you wonder how much of this is school, per se, and how much of it is just growing up. Home-schooled kids removed from that environment, for example, tend to have worse outcomes, partly because even while school can be stressful, not socializing routinely with same-aged peers is worse.

I do not think that sitting alone during breaks and only talking during the other 6 hours when you raise your hand to answer a question that a teacher asks really counts as socialization.

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think UKIP is fascist? Wikipedia defines that with the phrase "...dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition...". Many powerful politically inclined groups are forcibly silencing their opponents these days, but UKIP is not among them.

You left out the first part of that sentence, which reads: “Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical, right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism...”

On political topics, Wikipedia is extremely untrustworthy. Paid political workers are writing things like that. Lots of definitions have been changing over the past decade or two. Fascism and also Nazi would not normally have included "right-wing" in the definition in the prior century.

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#377
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are comparing the most extreme of one side (white nationalists) with the other side and pretending Antifa isn't frequently violent towards anyone to the right of Bernie Sanders.

> with the other side and pretending Antifa isn't frequently violent towards anyone to the right of Bernie Sanders. Liar.

You should read the HN guidelines. After that, visit youtube and watch videos of Antifa people with knives and baseball bats running around Portland threatening people in public parks and roads.

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#378
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with the other side and pretending Antifa isn't frequently violent towards anyone to the right of Bernie Sanders. Liar.

You should read the HN guidelines. After that, visit youtube and watch videos of Antifa people with knives and baseball bats running around Portland threatening people in public parks and roads.

[flagged]

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a lotta young male angst out there See this is exactly the problem the article talks about. A young man got so heavily invested in a community because they weren't dismissive of him. Maybe a lot of young men feel people are treating them dismissively and that a lot narratives other people espouse don't resonate with their personal experience. Maybe we should consider why this anger is so much more common in…

I'm not arguing that young men's anger is unjustified. But I am arguing that it's being dismissed by some, and exploited by others. And actually taken seriously by hardly anyone.

Ah, my apologies. I see a lot of people reading articles like this and then talking about how young men's anger is being exploited without ever really asking about why young men are angry and I guess I extrapolated a meaning from your comment that I shouldn't have

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#380

Fascism is seductive. It has little idological substance aside from that needed to apologize for promoting the ethnostate, and instead operates on style and spectacle. We let our teenagers become broadcasters, influencers, reviewers, and players, but failed to teach them how to avoid being parasocially suckered, influenced, gaslit, and used as pawns. Perhaps we need to craft an educational system which is more substa…

>It has little ideological substance

Fascism is an attempt to preserve tradition and meaning in an increasingly chaotic and senseless world. It creates order by demanding a return to organic hierarchical structures and by eliminating threats to a meaningful existence. Fascism is clearly incompatible with modern values which place the individual first. Individualism atomizes people rather than seeing them as part of a whole, and indeed today people lack the feeling of togetherness that is brought about by striving collectively for a higher cause. Some people can experience it fleetingly in the modern world—soldiers, for example—but it’s rare that a fire rages within anybody anymore. Everyone dedicates their lives working toward some cause and under some underlying pretense, but what is it that gives your life’s work meaning and to what end does your effort go? Now put yourself in the shoes of the teenagers who are so seduced by fascism or any other system that promises to give meaning to life. It’s not hard to imagine that in those turbulent formative years one would favor a way of life that, on one hand connects you to your past (culturally, geographically, spiritually), and on the other hand provides some hope that your efforts today are not going to be in vain—what meaning does your life’s work have if you expect the next generation to tear it down? You say fascism has little ideological substance. Its substance, to use your frame, is the preservation of meaning. Odds are, your ideology is rooted in modern norms that stand at odds with nature. They deprive the world of meaning. I would argue that that is worse than fascism.

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