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What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

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Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#361
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exact same thing? That’s one hell of a false equivalence. The alt right aren’t bad people because they are “overzealous”, they are bad people because of their bigotry on the basis of race, religion and national origin.

To be fair to the poster you're replying to, I can assume a much more charitable interpretation is that the quote draws an equivalency between being against Trump and being against the KKK, and that's the over-zealous and tribal aspect. It's similar to saying "No Bernie, No Marx." Yes, they're on the same side of the spectrum compared to center, but it seems unfair and disingenuous to combine them as such.

I'd say "no Bernie, no Stalin" would be more apt (Marx wasn't directly violent) and yes as you say it would be a completely unfair comparison.

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#362
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent, excellent points. Antifa members are often just a sick with fears, insecurities, and vengeance, as alt-right members. They are both peddlers of resentment, just run by different priests, and aimed at different enemies. Self-examination, getting beneath the ideologies and down at the underlying emotional content motivating their hosts is the only productive path to dialog and growth I've encountered so far.

You are trying so hard to sound reasonable and "both sides" these threads but it is simple to clock you. Both sides do not have merit. Only one side advocates hate against minorities and white nationalism. Only one side has multiple mass shooters it it's ranks. One side is a xenophobic reactionary group that contains nazis, and the other is a counter-protest group.

You are comparing the most extreme of one side (white nationalists) with the other side and pretending Antifa isn't frequently violent towards anyone to the right of Bernie Sanders.

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't private schools also have zero tolerance policies?

Students who engage in serious misconduct, or repeated disruptive conduct will be “counseled out.” But private schools are generally small, closed communities, which creates a high level of trust and allows routine misunderstandings and disputes to be resolved reasonably. Also, there are strong disincentives to “going nuclear” for both the school and the parents. The schools obviously stand to lose revenue, but the p…

Being at a private school won’t stop e.g. kids from being expelled for being caught a single time with a small amount of pot, as happened to my cousin and several of his friends. I guess at least they weren’t referred to the police?

Plenty of zero-tolerance bullshit at (extremely ritzy and exclusive... or any other type of) private schools too.

It’s not like being unaccountable to the local government makes school administrators stop power tripping.

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#364
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've watched the so-called alt-right develop online over the past 2-3 decades. Usenet, Live Journal, Encyclopedia Dramatica, the chans, etc. At least at the start, it was mostly about trolling and lulz. The anger of TFWNG. But somehow it's been captured by the actual right wing. That's frightening. There's a lotta young male angst out there.

> There's a lotta young male angst out there See this is exactly the problem the article talks about. A young man got so heavily invested in a community because they weren't dismissive of him. Maybe a lot of young men feel people are treating them dismissively and that a lot narratives other people espouse don't resonate with their personal experience. Maybe we should consider why this anger is so much more common in…

I'm not arguing that young men's anger is unjustified. But I am arguing that it's being dismissed by some, and exploited by others. And actually taken seriously by hardly anyone.

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#365
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably the author & son are alluding to the middle-aged man holding the poster, which I should hope is obviously nowhere near the same as antifa.

Well, I don't know if I think a middle-aged man who goes to a rally to hold up a sign saying "NO TRUMP. NO KKK. NO FASCIST USA," is progress over the alt-right. To me it's the exact same thing -- an overly zealous person who takes politics as a tribal game and has no sincere intention of changing anybody's mind.

I agree with you in the abstract ideal, but for a lot of people, this choice is roughly as good as it gets. In place of moral compasses, most people have thermometers they use to read the room, adopting belief systems and then enforcing them brutally, with no room for anything resembling moral reasoning, nuance, or basic human decency. The majority of the variability tends to be in 1) the belief system they choose to ingest and 2) the degree of passion with which they choose to engage in it. I'm not throwing my hands up and drawing a universal false equivalency here: Not every possible manifestation is as harmful as every other, and I have no trouble saying that the dehumanization and hatred that marks the strain of mainstream idpol leftism that's currently popular[1] is nowhere near as dangerous a manifestation as that of the alt-right. I don't see a lot of moral distance between the _participants_ in either of these ideologies; as far as I can tell, circumstances out of one's control have an outsize influence on which ideology most people end up as footsoldiers in. But the way in which people's barbarism is sublimated is extremely important from a pragmatic point of view, and I'd much rather see Sam become a mirror of the old man described than the modal alt-right participant at that rally.

Taking the author at her word[2] when she describes how Sam started out, it sounds like he may have been in touch with the sensitivity and decency it takes to approach others with basic empathy. But such a state can be fragile and it sounds like Sam's reaction to the incident at his school knocked him out of that orbit. In the best-case scenario, it's a temporary situation, but the author's claim is that Sam is at a point where he's got a lot of confusion and passion and rage that he's sublimated into politics, and perhaps the best we can hope for is that the path of hate that he picks is one of the less harmful ones like garden-variety identitarian center-leftism.

[1] I'm aware that this is probably an extraordinary claim to many here, so here's a simple example of what I mean. FTA:

> I’d never in my life backed the “masculinist” cause or imagined that men needed protecting—yet I couldn’t help but agree with Sam’s analysis.

The idea that the author doesn't realize what an abhorrent view this is is chilling; people and their lives are insanely complicated, and there's no group that's flatly-generalizable enough that a decent person would never have occasion to imagine they may need protecting in some scenario or another. There's no difference, at its fundamental root, between this and other more recognized forms of dehumanizing people by erasing their individual identities.

[2] Though perhaps we can't take this for granted: as evidenced by other parts of the article, she doesn't seem like a particularly decent person herself.

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#367
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are trying so hard to sound reasonable and "both sides" these threads but it is simple to clock you. Both sides do not have merit. Only one side advocates hate against minorities and white nationalism. Only one side has multiple mass shooters it it's ranks. One side is a xenophobic reactionary group that contains nazis, and the other is a counter-protest group.

You are comparing the most extreme of one side (white nationalists) with the other side and pretending Antifa isn't frequently violent towards anyone to the right of Bernie Sanders.

> with the other side and pretending Antifa isn't frequently violent towards anyone to the right of Bernie Sanders.

Liar.

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#368
post #39

> Sam pledged fealty to the idea of men’s rights because, as he said, his former administrator had privileged girls’ words and experiences over boys’, and that’s how all of his troubles had started in the first place. I wonder how common this dynamic is now.

Father of boys and girls here. Both sexes are just as violent, boys more so on the body, and girls more so on the mind. It was fascinating to hear my 7 year old daughter grasp for words to make me angry: ‘when you and mom divorce, I’m going with mom.’ I just raised an eyebrow and ignored. Boy’s will just throw things.

That's such an awful thing for your child to say. How do you ensure they won't do it again?

Re: What happened after my 13-year-old son joined the alt-right

#370

What resonated with me is how impossible it is, as a kid, to make sense of being in the school system. The interaction with an administrator was school discipline gone awry... but it could have easily been something else. (Discipline is the most likely, there are tons of misguided zero-tolerance policies.) I'm lucky that my parents were advocates and organizers and that they knew people in the school administration.…

> When I ran out of math classes to take at high school, I took them at college.

It's interesting how this works. I remember I had an English teacher I really hated at one point in high school. It was pretty early in the year, so I went to my counselor in hopes of getting it sorted out in those first couple weeks. The teacher apparently found my reactions entertaining and kept singling me out to tease me or imply not taking the notes was the end of the world. My counselor said I couldn't just change teachers, but I immediately asked if I could switch to Honors English, and he changed his tune. I'm not sure if he was somehow oblivious to my angle or if he was just willing to help me out so long as we went by the rules. I'd been in Honors classes on and off before, and this got me a different (and much better, but that was maybe luck more than anything) English teacher. She was what I'd describe as a nice and calm old lady, rather than a feisty young teacher who starts fights with students for some reason. There was also less homework in the Honors class and the difficulty difference was negligible. It's amazing how within the same school things can go from so bad to so good. I have a lot of issues and regrets with my time in school, and I worry that if I ever have kids I'll have to put them through the same. I'm seriously considering homeschooling.

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