Live data from Hacker News

CBS censors a ‘Good Fight’ segment whose topic was Chinese censorship

nytimes.com

201–210 of 304 posts

Re: CBS censors a ‘Good Fight’ segment whose topic was Chinese censorship

#201

I feel like free speech has never been under such attack. Culturally, we don't care about it, we find offensive content more offensive than censorship of offensive content. Politically, they can censor you completely if they want to by hitting you with an NSL. EFF says that happens 60 times a day. The most hard hitting journalist in the west, Julian Assange, was just put in jail. I'm scared about the future. It's not…

Assuming we are taking a US centric view here, I feel just the opposite: that speech has scarcely ever been so free. It was less than a decade ago that the U.S. military had a policy literally called "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". It was only fifty years ago that Martin Luther King Jr. was being investigated by the FBI, for speech that is now broadly considered necessary. About 100 years ago, check out the Sedition Act of…

"Don't ask don't tell" wasn't an attempt at censorship. In fact, when it was introduced by the Clinton administration it was hailed by LGBT groups because it allowed gay people to serve in the military.

People have forgotten the context in which Don't Ask Don't Tell was created. Today people assume it was some evil, presumably Republican, plan to keep gay people down. It was seen as quite the opposite when it first started. But since many people don't remember, weren't born, or don't bother doing research into their politics, they think of DADT as the opposite of what it was.

Re: CBS censors a ‘Good Fight’ segment whose topic was Chinese censorship

#202
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Print newspapers don't require logins because you can't read a print paper unless you already purchased it. To replicate that online, a login is necessary. I was under the impression the New York Times didn't allow companies to pay for custom articles until recently, but I could be wrong. Do you know when this happened?

Apparently Native Ads means something else: having your own adtech on the website, rather than doubleclick or whatever.

Sorry, I was referring to "sponsored stories", or other paid content that is not immediately recognizable as an ad. This is often referred to as "Native Advertising" in the industry.

Re: CBS censors a ‘Good Fight’ segment whose topic was Chinese censorship

#203
post #176

I feel like free speech has never been under such attack. Culturally, we don't care about it, we find offensive content more offensive than censorship of offensive content. Politically, they can censor you completely if they want to by hitting you with an NSL. EFF says that happens 60 times a day. The most hard hitting journalist in the west, Julian Assange, was just put in jail. I'm scared about the future. It's not…

The fact that hundreds of thousands of Muslims are put into concentration camps and the world does nothing is amazing. I think that is how bad the world wants cheap stuff.

Who is doing that, the Chinese?

Any terms to search for? This is the first I am hearing of it.

Re: CBS censors a ‘Good Fight’ segment whose topic was Chinese censorship

#204
post #203
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that hundreds of thousands of Muslims are put into concentration camps and the world does nothing is amazing. I think that is how bad the world wants cheap stuff.

Who is doing that, the Chinese? Any terms to search for? This is the first I am hearing of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

Re: CBS censors a ‘Good Fight’ segment whose topic was Chinese censorship

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same happened to South Park where the network ended up censoring a depiction of Muhammad - well, in the one episode, in an earlier one it was still up. And thankfully they didn't quit, they ran with it because it points out the hypocrisy, double standards, and weird morals that the US networks have.

The crazy thing with South Park was it wasn't just censoring Mohammed. There was a 5 minute monologue from one of the characters about the importance of not giving in to people who make threats of violence...which had a continuous tone censoring the whole speech. (A network decision, due to having received such threats.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/201_(South_Park)

Why did they censor the closing speech though?

Kyle: That's because there is no goo, Mr. Cruise. You see, I learned something today. Throughout this whole ordeal, we've all wanted to show things that we weren't allowed to show, but it wasn't because of some magic goo. It was because of the magical power of threatening people with violence. That's obviously the only true power. If there's anything we've all learned, it's that terrorizing people works.

Jesus: That's right. Don't you see, gingers, if you don't want to be made fun of anymore, all you need are guns and bombs to get people to stop.

Santa: That's right, friends. All you need to do is instill fear and be willing to hurt people and you can get whatever you want. The only true power is violence.

Stan: Yeah.

— The closing speech, which was censored by Comedy Central[2]

Re: CBS censors a ‘Good Fight’ segment whose topic was Chinese censorship

#206
post #18

It's a bit telling when a media giant like CBS can't strike a happy medium by you know - both not censoring it in the US and censoring it in china - instead, choosing to censor the whole thing outright on the entire platform. It's almost like all these American companies are moving en masse to do business in China with the sole purpose of increasing profits every single quarter, irrespective of (and arguably, now enc…

Absolutely. Most corporations have no more loyalty to one "side" or the other nor any more loyalty to an ideology than the Coke/Fanta hybrid-monstrosity of the 1940s. It took employees to force Google to reverse some of its policies, not its board of directors. At the same time, as the US withdraws from the world, China fills in. They zealously sell the surveillance state and its equipment world wide just as the US e…

> occasionally harmful American hegemony

Occasionally harmful? Hundreds of thousands slaughtered in the middle east in the past two decades isn't "occasionally harmful! China isn't even in the same league when it comes to the harm of US hegemony.

Re: CBS censors a ‘Good Fight’ segment whose topic was Chinese censorship

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Most corporations have no more loyalty to one "side" or the other nor any more loyalty to an ideology than the Coke/Fanta hybrid-monstrosity of the 1940s. It took employees to force Google to reverse some of its policies, not its board of directors. At the same time, as the US withdraws from the world, China fills in. They zealously sell the surveillance state and its equipment world wide just as the US e…

The last couple of days I've been learning a little more about China's emerging surveillance state and while terrifying to think about and worse sad knowing they're building essentially concentration camps, I am wondering how effective are China's policies. i.e. does China's investment and push towards a controlled society actually come out ahead compared to if they didn't? Without looking at any figures, surely poli…

I think it's less about building a productive China, and more about maintaining power for those in charge, but they could also honestly believe that the masses need to be controlled in order to have a productive China.

Re: CBS censors a ‘Good Fight’ segment whose topic was Chinese censorship

#208

I feel like free speech has never been under such attack. Culturally, we don't care about it, we find offensive content more offensive than censorship of offensive content. Politically, they can censor you completely if they want to by hitting you with an NSL. EFF says that happens 60 times a day. The most hard hitting journalist in the west, Julian Assange, was just put in jail. I'm scared about the future. It's not…

Assuming we are taking a US centric view here, I feel just the opposite: that speech has scarcely ever been so free. It was less than a decade ago that the U.S. military had a policy literally called "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". It was only fifty years ago that Martin Luther King Jr. was being investigated by the FBI, for speech that is now broadly considered necessary. About 100 years ago, check out the Sedition Act of…

I actually disagree with you. I think US public opinion is currently swinging very hard in a direction reminiscent of the predominant reasoning behind the Sedition Act and its contemporaries.

I like to take a judiciary-centered view; Congress can pass whatever censorious laws they want to, but those laws are toothless without the Court constructing the First Amendment in a way that upholds them. That construction was established in Schenck v. United States, where the unanimous opinion stated:

> The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic. ... The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent. It is a question of proximity and degree.

This is precisely where the "fire in a crowded theatre" meme comes from. In Schenck, this reasoning was used to uphold the conviction of a Socialist Party leader, under the Espionage Act of 1917, who published and mailed pamphlets advocating resistance to the draft. Abrams v. United States used the Schenck standard to uphold the conviction of a man, under the Sedition Act, who disseminated leaflets calling for an end to US arms production and condemning US intervention in the Russian Civil War.

Multiple states passed laws against "criminal syndicalism" during this time as well. Whitney v. California in 1927 upheld the conviction, under California's criminal syndicalism law, of one of the founders of the Communist Labor Party of America. The federal Smith Act of 1940 outlawed calling for the overthrow of the US government, and in the 1951 case of Dennis v. United States, the Supreme Court in 1951 upheld the convictions, under the Smith Act, of eleven leaders of the Communist Party USA on the grounds that communism inherently entailed advocating for the overthrow of the government.

As a whole, this early-to-mid-century legal reasoning is very similar to the justification for the restriction of "hate speech", even down to the "fire in a crowded theater" meme. The "paradox of tolerance" argument--that a tolerant society can only survive by refusing to tolerate intolerance--is often interpreted these days to justify a very similar Schenck-esque standard. I daresay that many people would agree with every Supreme Court decision I've named if you switched the specifics around such that the defendants were far-right and not far-left people.

Another similar argument you see a lot these days is that the private sector should have broad discretion in terms of "no-platforming" "hate speech". This is more or less the same reasoning behind the Hollywood blacklist, with the bogeymen swapped out.

The legal standard of "clear and present danger" and the precedents of Schenck, Abrams, Whitney, and Dennis were all more or less overturned in Brandenburg v. Ohio in 1969, where the Court established the standard of "imminent lawless action". Brandenburg himself was a KKK leader convicted of "advocating violence" under Ohio's "criminal syndicalism" law.

Brandenburg is an interesting case in a lot of ways, particularly because I suspect many self-described American liberals today would not agree with the ruling. At the time, though, Brandenburg was considered a sweeping liberal ruling, characteristic of the late Warren Court. Liberals in the 60's and 70's were reflexively skeptical of the censorious rationale behind the Schenck, Abrams, Whitney, and Dennis rulings, as well as the Red Scare atmosphere that surrounded the passage of criminal syndicalism laws in general. The fundamental principle of free expression was the cause to be upheld, even if an individual case benefitted a far-right defendant. In 1977, this was exemplified in National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie, where the Nazis sued for their right to hold a protest march. The lead attorney representing the Nazis was the ACLU's David Goldberger[1], himself Jewish. The Skokie ruling was a controversial stand even at the time; it might become unthinkable if current trends continue, especially since many of those criticisms uncritically mirror the reasoning of Schenck and its successive rulings.

[1] Goldberger himself has recently spoken out against the growing appetite for suppressing hate speech: https://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/commentary/charlottesv...

Re: CBS censors a ‘Good Fight’ segment whose topic was Chinese censorship

#209
post #176

I feel like free speech has never been under such attack. Culturally, we don't care about it, we find offensive content more offensive than censorship of offensive content. Politically, they can censor you completely if they want to by hitting you with an NSL. EFF says that happens 60 times a day. The most hard hitting journalist in the west, Julian Assange, was just put in jail. I'm scared about the future. It's not…

The fact that hundreds of thousands of Muslims are put into concentration camps and the world does nothing is amazing. I think that is how bad the world wants cheap stuff.

Nazi Germany had concentration camps as early as 1933 (Dachau) and nobody did anything either until they started invasions and a war.

Most genocides have happened as the world watches and says "oh wow that's terrible we should do something" and then do nothing. This is simply how humans behave on an international scale. There is nothing 'amazing' about it.

Re: CBS censors a ‘Good Fight’ segment whose topic was Chinese censorship

#210
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a myth of Capitalism, a lot of crappy products are used every day because of marketing, market flooding, patenting, copyright, corruption and so on and so forth.

Not a myth at all; what you just described is generally a result of crony capitalism, in bed with the government. When a true free market is allowed to operate (which happens all the time in many aspects of our economy), it is the most democratic meritocratic and fair way to exchange goods and services, and accumulate wealth. Pure capitalism has brought more people out of poverty than any other system or system of go…

There is no such thing as a Capitalism that us not a crony one, it's a pleonasm.

Capitalism is by definition a crony one. It has to go in bed with the government, because it's the government that sets the rules.

True free market means one company owning everything.

Post reply on HN