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'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam

theguardian.com

41–50 of 67 posts

Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam

#41
post #2

Every time I read about what China is doing to Uighurs, my heart sinks. Putting people in camps, monitoring their every move, coating it all with bureaucracy and lies. This is what genocide looks like. And nobody has the courage to stand up to China. Not even to publicly denounce them. Isn't this what the UN is for? To impose economic sanctions on flagrant human rights abusers? (Please, no whataboutism replies, what…

The permanent members of the UN Security Council (China, France, Russia, United Kingdom, and United States) can veto any "substantive" resolution.

Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam

#42
post #23

The other day the Guardian was inviting us to feel terrible about historic Uighur mosques being bulldozed: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/bulldo... ...so I went and did a little research. It turns out that one of these mosques is a shrine to a certain Imam Asim, a charming fellow that played an important part in the purposeful destruction in the 10/11th centuries of the Buddhist Khotan kingdom…

So then we should bulldoze all Christian churches, too? Numbers 31 "The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.” 3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them...7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every…

You see no irony in us being asked to mourn the destruction of a religious shrine for a person that himself participated in the deliberate destruction of multiple shrines purely on the basis of differing religion. Okay then!

Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam

#43
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then we should bulldoze all Christian churches, too? Numbers 31 "The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.” 3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them...7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every…

You see no irony in us being asked to mourn the destruction of a religious shrine for a person that himself participated in the deliberate destruction of multiple shrines purely on the basis of differing religion. Okay then!

I'm saying the people who went to that shrine weren't necessarily endorsing one thing that happened a thousand years ago. Lots of people revere Moses without endorsing slaughter and rape. The shrine served a spiritual function for a group of people; that gives it meaning. Unless you can provide evidence that those who visited it spent their time advocating violence, its meaning in their lives, and therefore its value, isn't diminished.

Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam

#44
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then we should bulldoze all Christian churches, too? Numbers 31 "The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.” 3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them...7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every…

You see no irony in us being asked to mourn the destruction of a religious shrine for a person that himself participated in the deliberate destruction of multiple shrines purely on the basis of differing religion. Okay then!

Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, and certainly not religious flamewar.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam

#45
post #2

Every time I read about what China is doing to Uighurs, my heart sinks. Putting people in camps, monitoring their every move, coating it all with bureaucracy and lies. This is what genocide looks like. And nobody has the courage to stand up to China. Not even to publicly denounce them. Isn't this what the UN is for? To impose economic sanctions on flagrant human rights abusers? (Please, no whataboutism replies, what…

It's telling that you're getting downvoted for posting literal facts to HN

That is far from an accurate description of the comment, irrespective of one's view on the topic.

Your post here breaks the site guidelines. Would you please read them, and follow them when commenting here?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam

#46
post #37

(off-topic/meta) This feels like a very unique HN thread. I can't recall seeing people actually attempting to defend something like this before on HN.

Specifically concerning the camps in China, every single thread I've seen has a number of people defending it. It appears to be mostly commenters who greatly fear islam and/or Chinese individuals who support the current regime.

It's more complex than that. Like any sufficiently large population sample (5M readers a month in HN's case), HN is divided on every topic where society is divided. Or rather, societies, because many countries are represented here. This story is embedded in the complicated and intensifying geopolitical controversy around China vis-à-vis the West, and can't be abstracted from it. This leaves people arguing with each other for all sorts of reasons, not all of which are obvious, and which opponents tend to view in too reductionist a way. The worst reductionist way is accusing each other of being shills or spies, which fortunately you didn't do!

From an HN point of view, how do we support intellectual curiosity while at the same time holding a place for the people—all people—whose lives are affected by this? I don't know. For the time being, the only thing I know to do is keep calling people back to the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. According to the guidelines, saying things like "I can't believe you support concentration camps" is not ok on HN, regardless of how strongly one feels about the topic. That's not a direct quote of anyone, but it's the sentiment the most aggressive commenters are jumping to when this story comes up, which it has frequently lately.

Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam

#47
post #24
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UN has done nothing about atrocities in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and North Korea, among so many more, so don't expect any change here.

I specifically said, no whataboutism please.

Please keep the tired trope of "whataboutism" off HN. It has become a cliché, used to cordon off discussion to what the original speaker wants to talk about—as if speaking first conferred some right to decide what is admissible. That's not how conversation works.

Comparables are often relevant, and looking for contradictions in what people argue or believe is a tool for shedding light on a situation. Somehow the word "whataboutism" became catchy enough that people started to believe in the right to exclude unwanted examples this way, but that's clearly a fallacy. If you can show how I'm applying a principle selectively in different cases, you've taught me something valuable. We need to stay open to that.

There's a subtler fallacy worth pointing out too: it doesn't follow that you're justifying the thing I'm against. That is, if you point out an inconsistency or some comparable example on my side of the argument, it doesn't follow that you're a communist or whatnot. Maybe you are, maybe not. Maybe we actually agree. All that follows is that you've found an inconsistency in me, and that's information I need.

When someone brings up an example that they think is relevant and you don't, the way to refute that is not with a garlic word, but to explain what the significant difference is. If there isn't a significant difference, maybe it's not irrelevant.

People do bring up irrelevancies, but that's rarer than it seems. More likely it's that they have a different perspective on what's relevant, as part of the original disagreement that needs hashing out in the first place. Cordoning off discussion doesn't help with that, and no party to a dispute gets the power to draw the lines of what's in and out for everybody. Indeed, that would amount to the power to impose one's view on the entire dispute.

And I wonder: if we could agree on what's relevant, perhaps by including everything we both really care about, how close that might get us to resolving our conflict itself.

Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam

#48
post #40
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attaching agreed-upon bad things like authoritarianism and terrorism and oppression onto arbitrary symbols like Islam and secularism is fallacious. Those superficial symbols make for terrible indicators of actual evil, and rhetoric like the above only serves to increase the injustice done to innocent people. See the recent Christchurch attack.

OP is right in observing that Islam is not compatible with political system in China. Islam has certain political goals built in. Chinese system requires political monopoly and keeping religion private matter. Hence the confrontation is logical and unavoidable. Not that I am saying what is happening is right.

"Islam has certain political goals built in"

From looking at the texts, you could say this about most major religions. From looking at the people, things are much less simple.

Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam

#49
post #48
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP is right in observing that Islam is not compatible with political system in China. Islam has certain political goals built in. Chinese system requires political monopoly and keeping religion private matter. Hence the confrontation is logical and unavoidable. Not that I am saying what is happening is right.

"Islam has certain political goals built in" From looking at the texts, you could say this about most major religions. From looking at the people, things are much less simple.

Hence China have been persecuting also Falun Gong, Christians and Tibetan Buddhists.

Interesting question is why China have decided on such massive social engineering Kulturkampf[1] project in Xinjiang?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturkampf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#Speculation_on_rati...

Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam

#50
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you take the Bible to be a literal historical account?

That's irrelevant. What matters is this assumption that every detail of a person's religious tradition directly and literally translates into an indicator of their ideals and behavior. In reality the number of people who take their texts that literally is small, both in Islam and Christianity. And those are the circles that terrorists come from. And their evil has nothing to do with the name of their religion.

That's a goalpost shift from the original post commenting about how these specific mosques were shrines to a warlord who committed actual atrocities. This wasn't an "assumption", these were actual events orchestrated by a real person.
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