Every time I read about what China is doing to Uighurs, my heart sinks. Putting people in camps, monitoring their every move, coating it all with bureaucracy and lies. This is what genocide looks like. And nobody has the courage to stand up to China. Not even to publicly denounce them. Isn't this what the UN is for? To impose economic sanctions on flagrant human rights abusers? (Please, no whataboutism replies, what…
'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam
41–50 of 67 posts
Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam
#42The other day the Guardian was inviting us to feel terrible about historic Uighur mosques being bulldozed: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/07/bulldo... ...so I went and did a little research. It turns out that one of these mosques is a shrine to a certain Imam Asim, a charming fellow that played an important part in the purposeful destruction in the 10/11th centuries of the Buddhist Khotan kingdom…
So then we should bulldoze all Christian churches, too? Numbers 31 "The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.” 3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them...7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every…
Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
So then we should bulldoze all Christian churches, too? Numbers 31 "The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.” 3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them...7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every…
You see no irony in us being asked to mourn the destruction of a religious shrine for a person that himself participated in the deliberate destruction of multiple shrines purely on the basis of differing religion. Okay then!
Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
So then we should bulldoze all Christian churches, too? Numbers 31 "The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.” 3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them...7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every…
You see no irony in us being asked to mourn the destruction of a religious shrine for a person that himself participated in the deliberate destruction of multiple shrines purely on the basis of differing religion. Okay then!
Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam
#45Every time I read about what China is doing to Uighurs, my heart sinks. Putting people in camps, monitoring their every move, coating it all with bureaucracy and lies. This is what genocide looks like. And nobody has the courage to stand up to China. Not even to publicly denounce them. Isn't this what the UN is for? To impose economic sanctions on flagrant human rights abusers? (Please, no whataboutism replies, what…
It's telling that you're getting downvoted for posting literal facts to HN
Your post here breaks the site guidelines. Would you please read them, and follow them when commenting here?
Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam
#46(off-topic/meta) This feels like a very unique HN thread. I can't recall seeing people actually attempting to defend something like this before on HN.
Specifically concerning the camps in China, every single thread I've seen has a number of people defending it. It appears to be mostly commenters who greatly fear islam and/or Chinese individuals who support the current regime.
From an HN point of view, how do we support intellectual curiosity while at the same time holding a place for the people—all people—whose lives are affected by this? I don't know. For the time being, the only thing I know to do is keep calling people back to the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. According to the guidelines, saying things like "I can't believe you support concentration camps" is not ok on HN, regardless of how strongly one feels about the topic. That's not a direct quote of anyone, but it's the sentiment the most aggressive commenters are jumping to when this story comes up, which it has frequently lately.
Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam
#47Earlier quoted context omitted.
The UN has done nothing about atrocities in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and North Korea, among so many more, so don't expect any change here.
I specifically said, no whataboutism please.
Comparables are often relevant, and looking for contradictions in what people argue or believe is a tool for shedding light on a situation. Somehow the word "whataboutism" became catchy enough that people started to believe in the right to exclude unwanted examples this way, but that's clearly a fallacy. If you can show how I'm applying a principle selectively in different cases, you've taught me something valuable. We need to stay open to that.
There's a subtler fallacy worth pointing out too: it doesn't follow that you're justifying the thing I'm against. That is, if you point out an inconsistency or some comparable example on my side of the argument, it doesn't follow that you're a communist or whatnot. Maybe you are, maybe not. Maybe we actually agree. All that follows is that you've found an inconsistency in me, and that's information I need.
When someone brings up an example that they think is relevant and you don't, the way to refute that is not with a garlic word, but to explain what the significant difference is. If there isn't a significant difference, maybe it's not irrelevant.
People do bring up irrelevancies, but that's rarer than it seems. More likely it's that they have a different perspective on what's relevant, as part of the original disagreement that needs hashing out in the first place. Cordoning off discussion doesn't help with that, and no party to a dispute gets the power to draw the lines of what's in and out for everybody. Indeed, that would amount to the power to impose one's view on the entire dispute.
And I wonder: if we could agree on what's relevant, perhaps by including everything we both really care about, how close that might get us to resolving our conflict itself.
Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
Attaching agreed-upon bad things like authoritarianism and terrorism and oppression onto arbitrary symbols like Islam and secularism is fallacious. Those superficial symbols make for terrible indicators of actual evil, and rhetoric like the above only serves to increase the injustice done to innocent people. See the recent Christchurch attack.
OP is right in observing that Islam is not compatible with political system in China. Islam has certain political goals built in. Chinese system requires political monopoly and keeping religion private matter. Hence the confrontation is logical and unavoidable. Not that I am saying what is happening is right.
From looking at the texts, you could say this about most major religions. From looking at the people, things are much less simple.
Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
OP is right in observing that Islam is not compatible with political system in China. Islam has certain political goals built in. Chinese system requires political monopoly and keeping religion private matter. Hence the confrontation is logical and unavoidable. Not that I am saying what is happening is right.
"Islam has certain political goals built in" From looking at the texts, you could say this about most major religions. From looking at the people, things are much less simple.
Interesting question is why China have decided on such massive social engineering Kulturkampf[1] project in Xinjiang?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturkampf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#Speculation_on_rati...
Re: 'If you enter a camp, you never come out': inside China's war on Islam
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
So you take the Bible to be a literal historical account?
That's irrelevant. What matters is this assumption that every detail of a person's religious tradition directly and literally translates into an indicator of their ideals and behavior. In reality the number of people who take their texts that literally is small, both in Islam and Christianity. And those are the circles that terrorists come from. And their evil has nothing to do with the name of their religion.