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Google Fights Back

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Re: Google Fights Back

#91

Post by Nextgrid »

pgeorgi wrote: post #75
loudtieblahblah wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is already not Google. The "Don't Be Evil" corporation that valued open source rather than open-washing, that valued openstandards over "oops, we didn't mean to break that for you!" isn't here anymore. The company that bends over backwards, much farther than the law requires, to enable the surveillance state. I despise Apple. Especially on mobile. No SDCards, no headphone jack, walled garden app stores. Ugh ug…

> And i don't believe for a second the data they're allowing you to "autodelete" genuinely gets deleted. It just gets removed from your view. While "deleted" might take a while (eventual consistency FTW), any company with a presence in the EU has a lot to lose if such a scheme (beyond what they declare, eg. "31 days to recover your account") ever sees the light of day.

Legal action requires you to be able to prove they still hold the data.

If they only use it for something where other factors affect the outcome (ad targeting, etc) they can still keep your data forever while hiding behind plausible deniability the other factors provide them (from outside, there’s no way to prove that a particular ad was served to you because of your data instead of another factor they use as input for the algorithm).

Re: Google Fights Back

#92

Post by saghm »

loudtieblahblah wrote: post #70
areoform wrote: post #7

Google owns my soul. Their boxes know when I sleep, when I wake, how much I exercise, what I listen to, my innermost thoughts, my chats with loved ones, what I watched on Netflix last night, what my company does, the flu I have at the moment, what the hypochondriac in me looks up in the middle of the night, what I buy, whom I call, what I spend money on, where I spend it... I nominally pay for these services, but I s…

Google is already not Google. The "Don't Be Evil" corporation that valued open source rather than open-washing, that valued openstandards over "oops, we didn't mean to break that for you!" isn't here anymore. The company that bends over backwards, much farther than the law requires, to enable the surveillance state. I despise Apple. Especially on mobile. No SDCards, no headphone jack, walled garden app stores. Ugh ug…

> No SDCards, no headphone jack

> I loathe the notch.

To be fair, each of these either already is or is becoming the norm on Android phones as well (at least, ones at a similar price point iPhones). Several of the top end phones have notches and no headphone jack, and I haven't had an Android phone with an SD card slot for about five years now.

[edits: formatting/typos]

Re: Google Fights Back

#93

Post by gervase »

darkwizard42 wrote: post #62
falcolas wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is also holding the plunger that helped create the dam breakage. Not to mention the pry-bars being applied to any attempts to fix the dam. EDIT: For those who want to downvote, consider that the vast majority of Google's revenue comes from the use of your personal information to target you with ads, and that most of the advances in ad targeting using personal data have been made by Google.

I think you are espousing an "ADS ARE INHERENTLY BAD" mentality that just doesn't resonate with people. I want to know about the best services that are useful for me. I do not want to be advertised women's swimsuits on Instagram (I'm a male with no interest in purchasing said item). When I see ads that are useless its infuriating. However, when I see an ad for Allbirds or a cool new leather jacket, I feel very much i…

It resonates with me, because I view ads as (intrinsically) mentally intrusive. I find seeing any ad, regardless of its relevance, infuriating; the advertiser is paying someone, not me, to place a thought or perception into my brain that I do not want there.

If I decide that I want to purchase a new jacket, for example because I'm traveling to a much colder climate, I want to be able to seek out (ideally unbiased) information about jackets and make my own decision.

Some of that might be in the form of advertising, but I will have made the decision to seek it out, rather than my plane ticket purchase being mined and then targeted with a clothing company ad.

I consider it to be equivalent to someone unexpectedly spooning food into my mouth, then arguing "Well, you have to eat anyway, why are you complaining?" It violates my sense of agency.

Perhaps I have a higher desire for agency than most?

Re: Google Fights Back

#94

Post by mtgx »

loudtieblahblah wrote: post #84
Apocryphon wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about the Librem 5?

The problem with Libre5/Purism is apps. A lot of the secure applications I use have a linux app of some sort (DEB, AppImage, Docker) but I fail to see how any of that is going to work on a phone. I certainly don't see how a docker container would be good for battery life on a phone either ProtonMail - for example - on Linux, requires a bridge application in order to talk to a IMAP capable email client. Etesync requir…

It's a shame the Copperhead OS died.

Re: Google Fights Back

#95

Post by sixothree »

pgeorgi wrote: post #75
loudtieblahblah wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is already not Google. The "Don't Be Evil" corporation that valued open source rather than open-washing, that valued openstandards over "oops, we didn't mean to break that for you!" isn't here anymore. The company that bends over backwards, much farther than the law requires, to enable the surveillance state. I despise Apple. Especially on mobile. No SDCards, no headphone jack, walled garden app stores. Ugh ug…

> And i don't believe for a second the data they're allowing you to "autodelete" genuinely gets deleted. It just gets removed from your view. While "deleted" might take a while (eventual consistency FTW), any company with a presence in the EU has a lot to lose if such a scheme (beyond what they declare, eg. "31 days to recover your account") ever sees the light of day.

Even then I would still fear that data having already been transformed into something else and using word play to disassociate with the original set of data.

edit: I've been subjected to Google's dark patterns for so many years that I doubt I will ever trust this company to be honest with me.

Re: Google Fights Back

#96

Post by j05h »

loudtieblahblah wrote: post #84
Apocryphon wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about the Librem 5?

The problem with Libre5/Purism is apps. A lot of the secure applications I use have a linux app of some sort (DEB, AppImage, Docker) but I fail to see how any of that is going to work on a phone. I certainly don't see how a docker container would be good for battery life on a phone either ProtonMail - for example - on Linux, requires a bridge application in order to talk to a IMAP capable email client. Etesync requir…

So much this. Without a ride share app (and a few others) I just can't see going to Librem 5 as much as I would like to.

Re: Google Fights Back

#97

Post by Dig1t »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #90
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all true, but to protect yourself from all that, you're going to have to keep your data away from Apple as well (i.e no iCloud drive/photos/calendar/mail, etc) Not running algorithms for ad targeting doesn't make the data any more secure. Only end-to-end encryption does.

I thought that stuff was all encrypted, and Apple couldn't see it?

It _is_ encrypted, Apple cannot see it. The parent comment is mistaken

Re: Google Fights Back

#98

Post by j05h »

aparc123 wrote: post #67
areoform wrote: post #7

Google owns my soul. Their boxes know when I sleep, when I wake, how much I exercise, what I listen to, my innermost thoughts, my chats with loved ones, what I watched on Netflix last night, what my company does, the flu I have at the moment, what the hypochondriac in me looks up in the middle of the night, what I buy, whom I call, what I spend money on, where I spend it... I nominally pay for these services, but I s…

Can't we make the same argument about Apple. What happens when apple stops being apple, when they don't have the smart phone dominance and decides to venture back into Ads. Or who owns apple when someone else has to. I understand why anyone would want ios now but your argument is about the future.

Sure...but currently Apple is (seemingly) more privacy focused than Gಠ۾ಠgle.

Re: Google Fights Back

#99

Post by marssaxman »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #63
areoform wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but 100 years will anyone care that you had the flu on May 7 2019 My future health care provider might. Maybe they’ll spike rates by figuring out how often I’m ill using this data. Maybe I will marry a congressman someday and the sext that I sent today to my BF will be used to blackmail us. Maybe 30 years from now, people will be able to use my youthful indiscretions as leverage. Maybe I won’t get certain jobs beca…

It's all true, but to protect yourself from all that, you're going to have to keep your data away from Apple as well (i.e no iCloud drive/photos/calendar/mail, etc) Not running algorithms for ad targeting doesn't make the data any more secure. Only end-to-end encryption does.

This has always seemed pretty straightforward to me, so I simply don't store things that need to stay private on other people's machines. If I want to keep it private then I keep it to myself, and that's that. If I put it out into the world, I assume it's out there to be seen, and it doesn't really matter what privacy guarantees people claim to make today because policies may always change tomorrow.

I do make one exception to this, in that I have a long-standing business arrangement with a company that manages my mail and web server, but I am paying them for a specific service which they have been completely reliable about providing, so I feel generally comfortable with that.

I feel badly for people who haven't had the advantage of growing up with all this stuff and are therefore having to learn these lessons the hard way. Lots of painful experiences out there.

Re: Google Fights Back

#100

Post by chris_engel »

So if I am using an ad blocker and dont see any ads at all, dont I just _cost_ google, facebook, etc. money from using their services and having them store my data?

What if the majority of people would block all ads? Wouldnt data collection become meaningless?

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