A little discussed effect of therapy: it changes personality (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: A little discussed effect of therapy: it changes personality (2017)

#71

Post by gfmio » Wed, May 08, 2019, 4:38 PM UTC

calewis wrote: post #64

gfmio wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NHS also offers a range of other talking therapies /counselling, e.g. counselling for depression. The waiting times here can be shorter than for CBT. If you're in dire need for help (depends on your scores and initial phone interview), you will be seen or referred quickly (within less than a month). Any GP will refer you. If you need help with your mental health, just ask your GP for a referral, fill out the form…

I think most people who suffer from actual depression, not a just a bout of sadness need long term treatment. The NHS is poorly provisioned in this way, sadly. Just like a diabetic who needs insulin everyday people with serious psychological conditions need regular treatment. I'm lucky enough to be able to afford it, I don't know how I would cope if I couldn't.

There are different variations of depressions. In particular, it differs between acute and chronic occurrence.

As far as I know, acute occurrences tend to be more intense (as experienced and reported in standardised tests) on average than chronic ones. Here, the risk of, e.g. suicide is also highest. However, long-term depression has a much more long-lasting impact on one's life, so I don't want to downplay it in any way.

Acute episodes tend to have a duration of only a few weeks or months so short-term therapy can be of great help here.

I agree that chronic depression requires long-term support. Your analogy with insulin and diabetes is excellent. And yes, the NHS falls short in this area, unfortunately. It would be great if more people could get the care they need and I hope it will become possible.

So yes, the NHS is not without its flaws. But considering the little funding it receives, it provides excellent care. It just shouldn't be so underfunded. I also think that it is also remarkably well-organised compared to other countries, e.g. Germany, where everything is much more bureaucratic and expensive. I also think it's significantly that countries with more privatised health care like the US.

Re: A little discussed effect of therapy: it changes personality (2017)

#72

Post by camelNotation » Wed, May 08, 2019, 4:41 PM UTC

dannyism wrote: post #70

If traits like "neuroticism", which would result from the very mental illnesses that psychotherapy promises to address, constitute personality, isn't it obvious that psychotherapy should change it? Why is anyone acting surprised?

Neuroticism in the context of personality is not necessarily the same as having a mental illness or being "neurotic." There is some crossover between the behavior of someone we would describe as "neurotic" and someone with "high neuroticism" on the big five, but as a matter of personality, high neuroticism simply means that you worry more and tend to see things in a more negative, realistic way.

This carries obvious advantages in certain contexts as long as it is tempered and doesn't get out of hand. It has lots of disadvantages too, especially in the job market, but all personality traits have a downside if you score too highly. If you are too open, you can fail to weigh and measure risks properly. If you are too agreeable, people will walk all over you. If you are too extroverted, it can create dependency issues and alienation. If you are too conscientious, you can end up so consumed by the minutiae of life that you miss important, big picture ideas.

Re: A little discussed effect of therapy: it changes personality (2017)

#73

Post by __s » Wed, May 08, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

calewis wrote: post #67

__s wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As with many things, a therapist offers one to exchange money for time spent figuring out things on your own I've found success without therapy through minimal exercise over no exercise & framing things as neutral Framing things as neutral: I'm Canadian, so during Winter I've made a point to perceive the statement "I'm cold" as a neutral statement. A sensory experience as opposed to an affliction of pain. Also focuss…

This is an approach that worked for you. You have employed your own CBT technique it sounds like, and that's great! Bit I think it's unfair to imply that you can just work harder and come to the same conclusions without a professional. A physiotherapist is often highly educated in psychology and has had, usually, years of experience dealing with a range of people, issues and scenarios. Some people, due to what ever i…

For sure. When I say "time is money" that might involve more time than you'll ever have available. & a friend once reflected on seeing a therapist: "It's not the job of my friends to be my therapist" ie there's value in bouncing ideas off someone who you don't have to worry about stressing a casual friendship over

Re: A little discussed effect of therapy: it changes personality (2017)

#74

Post by Nav_Panel » Wed, May 08, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

The idea of therapy and its effects on personality is actually something discussed in psychoanalytic literature (noting that psychoanalysis !== "therapy" in most cases), often framed as an ethical question, "when is it permissible to perform psychoanalysis?" Some quotes from a book on Lacan:

> what exactly does ‘curing’ mean? Is it simply the disappearance of a symptom, or does one aim to change the underlying personality structure that produced it and in which it is inscribed? Is this at all achievable, and if it is, is it desirable? If it is neither achievable nor desirable, then where should curing stop – at what boundary line? And finally, is it always a good thing even to begin the process, when you don’t know where to end it or whether you will be leaving behind a damaged and less effective Subject?

> By the early 1960s, Lacan felt that forcing people to confront the truth about themselves, the meaning of their symptoms and the hitherto repressed elements in their unconscious, had consequences too serious to be undertaken with anything less than the greatest caution.

> I shall finish with an example of a patient who, at the end of her treatment, seemed quite aware of the loss she would suffer as a result of being cured. The young woman, who had been severely anorexic, talked about a dream during one of her last sessions. In it, she had on a necklace on which there was a great, pointed spike or barb. The curious thing was that this necklace was under her skin, within her body, and she wanted to remove it – to get it out of her. She somehow managed to tug it out, but as the spike came out of her body, it left a gaping hole, and she was bleeding. The analyst said in agreement with her unconscious knowledge: ‘Yes, you will be left with a hole. And you will be bleeding.’ The patient understood immediately and perfectly the meaning of both: that the giving up of her symptom would indeed leave a hole in the structure of her Subject, and she would face the new reality of menstrual bleeding. If this illustration leaves one with many questions, that is as Lacan would have wished.

Re: A little discussed effect of therapy: it changes personality (2017)

#75

Post by laythea » Wed, May 08, 2019, 5:00 PM UTC

frosted-flakes wrote: post #62

borkt wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFOAF went through a tough time basically between the end of high school and a year out of college. Family stuff that was so hard to emotionally grasp and make sense of it absolutely paralyzed her. She went through many different forms of therapy; from affordable counselors, to a professor at her college (don't try that, they usually just want you to pay to be in a study), to a relatively average psychologist (~150/h…

AFOAF = A friend of a friend? That's a rather obscure acronym.

Is that not code, for me?

Re: A little discussed effect of therapy: it changes personality (2017)

#76

Post by doboyy » Wed, May 08, 2019, 5:02 PM UTC

specialist wrote: post #57

yomly wrote: post #4

What even is "personality" - leaving aside technical and dictionary definitions, if you --the person-- are the sum of your life experiences, can you ever truly not be you? I pose this because I encounter resistance from people to the notion that they can change themselves, lest they lose some notion of their "self", and personality is often equated with "self" from my experience.

I was deeply influenced by Marvin Minsky's Society of the Mind as a kid. That along with my readings in Zen, Taoism, Buddhism, and the notion of paradoxes, I gave up trying to precisely define who I am and accept that it's contextual. (Also Shakespeare's "All the world is a stage" and Ministry's "(Every day is) Halloween". Life is performance art. We're all wearing costumes.) Just try to keep your different personas…

On the last part, I think a major part of why therapy can be helpful is because you have the choice to not adopt different personas, which makes me wonder that issue is a large source of problems.

I'm not the first to say this, but I feel most like "myself" when nobody is watching.

Re: A little discussed effect of therapy: it changes personality (2017)

#77

Post by wpietri » Wed, May 08, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

sjg007 wrote: post #23

charleyramm wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think it was necessary to go through this process with a therapist, or could a less expensive alternative have had the same effect?

I think a therapist is necessary, at least to bootstrap the process. You can listen to podcasts and read books by therapists. You can think and try to reason about it yourself. You can expose yourself to the ideas. You can learn about cognitive behavioral therapy and try out worksheets etc... But that takes time and you may not cover everything or know what will be effective for you. A therapist can keep you accounta…

Totally agreed. When I pay a therapist, it's not really for facts, which I can get from books. It's for their long experience with a lot of different people. That gives them the ability to immediately spot patterns in my life that might take me years to recognize. And also the skill to point out my self-fooling BS in a way that I can listen to and understand the point.

Re: A little discussed effect of therapy: it changes personality (2017)

#78

Post by thefifthsetpin » Wed, May 08, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

yboris wrote: post #38

calewis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who suffers from depression and has gone to therapy for over 5 years (I am also on medication), please try and force yourself to go. It will most likely change your life for the better, if not, what have you wasted? A bit of money and a few hours of your time? It could make you better at dealing with your depression and, as a consequence, make you feel happier. You might need to try a few different therapi…

Thank you for sharing. Sincerely curious what you mean by "A bit of money". I'm lucky that I didn't have to have therapy. My guess is unless your insurance/job covers mental health, it's at least $50/hour (closer to $100 or $150 if in a major city). Surely not much for the possible benefits (and on a developer salary), but I'm wondering how expensive such services are.

In my experience, therapy made me more productive by enough to pay for itself. Also in my experience, your estimates are accurate.

Re: A little discussed effect of therapy: it changes personality (2017)

#79

Post by nyxtom » Wed, May 08, 2019, 5:21 PM UTC

lkadr wrote: post #10

After years of depression, I'm sure my personality is one of the cause of me still being depressed. And if I went to therapy, I'd expect and want it to change. But change is scary, and I suppose that's why some depressed persons don't want to seek help. There's sometimes comfort in suffering. Another reason is that the not-desesperate me feels shallow and boring. But there's probably a hopeful me that's not. I haven'…

As someone that has gone to therapy for several years I can tell you that eventually you get to a place where you need more than talking - action. People tend to need some sort of organizational philosophy to go with their view of life along with habits that comfort them in times of mental disarray. You are not ever going to be able to avoid suffering, times of boredom, or anything else, but you also don't have to be stuck. This is going to sound cliche, but talk is cheap. Practicing what you are discovering about yourself into habitual evidence is what becomes important as you broaden your self-awareness and dig yourself out of the depressive holes in life. In the words of Jocko, discipline = freedom. I've found that a combination of therapy and seeking out actionable things I can do to be more disciplined has been fundamental in getting beyond the ego of the self and out into the world.

Re: A little discussed effect of therapy: it changes personality (2017)

#80

Post by ljm » Wed, May 08, 2019, 5:23 PM UTC

lkadr wrote: post #10

After years of depression, I'm sure my personality is one of the cause of me still being depressed. And if I went to therapy, I'd expect and want it to change. But change is scary, and I suppose that's why some depressed persons don't want to seek help. There's sometimes comfort in suffering. Another reason is that the not-desesperate me feels shallow and boring. But there's probably a hopeful me that's not. I haven'…

There's nothing about 'comfort zone' that suggests it's always a happy place. It's just a familiar one. It's so easy to become accustomed to pain or suffering that it becomes scary to imagine how things might be different, even if that change is positive.

I would recommend giving therapy a shot, but I would recommend even strongly that you find the therapist who is right for you. It won't always be the first one you meet, or even the most recommended one. It's a relationship just like any other so it requires trust.

I've been going through this for 6 years and if I had to go back and decide differently, I'd travel this same path again. Pitfalls and all.