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Active freelancer banned on Upwork after video verification process

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Re: Active freelancer banned on Upwork after video verification process

#21

Post by dang »

LyndsySimon wrote: post #20
deanclatworthy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe this is a big misunderstanding, and your blog post title is clickbait.

I see nothing wrong with that. The man's livelihood was destroyed, without a provided justification or an apparent means of appeal. The "court of public opinion" is basically his only shot to get it back, and that requires views. Clickbait gets views.

That's not a bad argument, but it isn't a good fit for HN. Clickbait is against the site guidelines, because its strengths—attracting quick attention and generating indignation—are actually weaknesses for intellectual curiosity, the main value of this site.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Active freelancer banned on Upwork after video verification process

#22

Post by dang »

neilv wrote: post #18
Sharlin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably flagged (due to the original clickbait title), which penalizes a post pretty drastically in the HN ranking algorithm.

The first title I saw did sound a bit clickbaity, and it looked like someone later rewrote the title, and then tweaked the rewrite (changed "user" to "freelancer"). If the penalty for sounding clickbaity in the submitted title is that the post then won't be seen, that sounds plausibly appropriate, in the context of widespread poor media practices we're trying to improve. In this particular instance, such strict measu…

The submitted title was "Upwork: Banned me after 3 years and $50k earned, for being unshaven". A moderator changed it to something more neutral, in keeping with the site guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

In this case, I don't know if it makes sense to resubmit the post. It's obviously very important for the author; anyone can understand that. But it also doesn't contain enough information to gratify intellectual curiosity or feed a substantive discussion, which are the main criteria for whether something is on topic here. I think it would be ok to give it a try, though, and see how the community reacts. The author emailed us, so I'll let him know this by email.

A general point: something I didn't realize before moderating HN, but now know all too well, is that the reasons users give others for why they were banned are usually inaccurate. Sometimes that's because they leave out critical information about what they did. Other times it's because they really have no clue why they were banned. And it can easily be both of these. As a result, these stories tend to be misleadingly one-sided, so the default response should usually be to suspend judgement until more information is available. That's just a general comment—not about this particular story.

Re: Active freelancer banned on Upwork after video verification process

#23

Post by dang »

Sharlin wrote: post #17
neilv wrote: post #14

Is there a problem with this HN post, that would remove it from view? (While I was typing a comment, the HN title changed twice, and then I couldn't find the post anywhere within the first several front pages of HN (searching each page for "upwork" and "medium"), despite the post having 42 points in 58 minutes. The post is still findable on the second page of "new" at the moment, but seems stuck at 42 points from abo…

Probably flagged (due to the original clickbait title), which penalizes a post pretty drastically in the HN ranking algorithm.

Yes, users flagged it. That doesn't always penalize a post drastically; it depends on the ratio of flags to upvotes.

Re: Active freelancer banned on Upwork after video verification process

#24

Post by gnufreex »

dang wrote: post #22
neilv wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first title I saw did sound a bit clickbaity, and it looked like someone later rewrote the title, and then tweaked the rewrite (changed "user" to "freelancer"). If the penalty for sounding clickbaity in the submitted title is that the post then won't be seen, that sounds plausibly appropriate, in the context of widespread poor media practices we're trying to improve. In this particular instance, such strict measu…

The submitted title was "Upwork: Banned me after 3 years and $50k earned, for being unshaven". A moderator changed it to something more neutral, in keeping with the site guidelines ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ). In this case, I don't know if it makes sense to resubmit the post. It's obviously very important for the author; anyone can understand that. But it also doesn't contain enough informati…

Thanks. I will do so. Upwork finally responded to me and said this

Hello Mihajlo,

Maintaining the integrity of our site is of utmost importance to our team and to our community of users. Considering the violations that have occurred. Due to the security of processes, I am unable to provide additional details.

I understand this decision is a difficult one for you, but I am comfortable with my team’s choice to close your account. The decision is final.

I wish you the best in any future business endeavors, even though our working relationship is now effectively ended.

Best,

Cheryl

So basically some rule that I dont know about but they wont tell me.

Re: Active freelancer banned on Upwork after video verification process

#25

Post by ilaksh »

dang wrote: post #21
LyndsySimon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see nothing wrong with that. The man's livelihood was destroyed, without a provided justification or an apparent means of appeal. The "court of public opinion" is basically his only shot to get it back, and that requires views. Clickbait gets views.

That's not a bad argument, but it isn't a good fit for HN. Clickbait is against the site guidelines, because its strengths—attracting quick attention and generating indignation—are actually weaknesses for intellectual curiosity, the main value of this site. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Its not clickbait. They gave him no explanation for the ban. They required a video call. It is reasonable to speculate that his appearance could have been a factor.

Re: Active freelancer banned on Upwork after video verification process

#26

Post by ilaksh »

neilv wrote: post #11

One general concern that this report raises is that an unaccountable company can suddenly cut off a person from working for many companies, as well as from the reputation the person built (in the metrics of the company).

Upwork is another technopoly. They have such a dominant position that it is practically a monopoly.

These technology monopolies run by private interests should be replaced by public decentralized protocols and networks. Then cases like this would have public records available. And there would be the possibility of multiple companies operating in the network that would allow for competition.

Re: Active freelancer banned on Upwork after video verification process

#27

Post by neilv »

gnufreex wrote: post #24
dang wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The submitted title was "Upwork: Banned me after 3 years and $50k earned, for being unshaven". A moderator changed it to something more neutral, in keeping with the site guidelines ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ). In this case, I don't know if it makes sense to resubmit the post. It's obviously very important for the author; anyone can understand that. But it also doesn't contain enough informati…

Thanks. I will do so. Upwork finally responded to me and said this Hello Mihajlo, Maintaining the integrity of our site is of utmost importance to our team and to our community of users. Considering the violations that have occurred. Due to the security of processes, I am unable to provide additional details. I understand this decision is a difficult one for you, but I am comfortable with my team’s choice to close yo…

Unfortunately, US companies tend not to subscribe to US ideals of judicial process.

If you don't know why this company did this, and it's put you in a bad situation, then one option is to contact an organization like `eff.org`, and ask them for ideas. They might be interested in the issue of Internet-enabled "gig economy" middle party accountability. If not, they might be able to point you to the right US government authority, or to a different non-profit organization.

You could also consult a private attorney. In the US, you can get a referral to an attorney through a Bar Association, and ask for a free initial consultation, during which they will give you an idea what they can try, and how expensive that will be. If you're in the US, you can also sometimes go to a free legal clinic operated by a nearby law school.

But, I hate to say it, be cautious about raising a fuss. It sounds like you're already burnt irrevocably at the original company. (Even when someone in an organization realizes a mistake was made, an organization will tend to double-down rather than admit it.) But raising a fuss might also preclude future work at many other companies (which are often paranoid about human resources). It's not fair to the individual, nor good for society when people who feel wronged are afraid to speak up, but it's often the reality.

I'm sorry that you're currently losing income and the reputation that you built up through a company, and I hope that can be straightened out.

Re: Active freelancer banned on Upwork after video verification process

#28

Post by bradleyhb »

ilaksh wrote: post #26
neilv wrote: post #11

One general concern that this report raises is that an unaccountable company can suddenly cut off a person from working for many companies, as well as from the reputation the person built (in the metrics of the company).

Upwork is another technopoly. They have such a dominant position that it is practically a monopoly. These technology monopolies run by private interests should be replaced by public decentralized protocols and networks. Then cases like this would have public records available. And there would be the possibility of multiple companies operating in the network that would allow for competition.

Want to do something about it?

Re: Active freelancer banned on Upwork after video verification process

#29

Post by ilaksh »

bradleyhb wrote: post #28
ilaksh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upwork is another technopoly. They have such a dominant position that it is practically a monopoly. These technology monopolies run by private interests should be replaced by public decentralized protocols and networks. Then cases like this would have public records available. And there would be the possibility of multiple companies operating in the network that would allow for competition.

Want to do something about it?

Well I thought making people aware of the issue was a start.

There are some decentralized alternatives that have been started. For example ethlance.

Re: Active freelancer banned on Upwork after video verification process

#30

Post by dang »

ilaksh wrote: post #25
dang wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a bad argument, but it isn't a good fit for HN. Clickbait is against the site guidelines, because its strengths—attracting quick attention and generating indignation—are actually weaknesses for intellectual curiosity, the main value of this site. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Its not clickbait. They gave him no explanation for the ban. They required a video call. It is reasonable to speculate that his appearance could have been a factor.

Ok, but the title doesn't speculate; it makes the claim outright. People naturally feel rage at the image of someone being banned so arbitrarily and trivially. Generating rage with evidenceless claims is definitely clickbait.
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