How the Apple Store Lost Its Luster • Hacker News Board

Re: How the Apple Store Lost Its Luster

#191

Post by tuxone » Tue, May 07, 2019, 4:32 PM UTC

megous wrote: post #133

tuxone wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's just my experience, but it looks like this thread (as the article) is all about personal experiences. I had four time the same issue with a MBP 2011, the HDD cable was failing again ad again. First time they replaced it, next time they replaced the cable plus the HDD, third time they replaced cable plus logicboard, fourth I got a new MBP 2013. All for free, without Apple Care. Every time I got my laptop b…

HW design, that fails 3 times in a row in the same place (and ultimately even destroys the logic board - probably because of the short on the exposed cable wiring), and the service that fails to prevent that, I'd hardly call a "true heaven". It's terrible. Say, they failed to make the cable protected enough in the initial design. During the first service, they should just not replace the cable, they should also add t…

Every time only the flat cable was faulty (in fact I could always boot the HDD from usb with an adapter). They replaced the other components because they were thinking that those were damaging the cable.

Design flaw happens and Apple relatively quickly sorted it out. On the other hand, I will never forget Acer's screen hinges and how we were supposed to fix them [0]

[0] https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Uhe4i2yLFTY/maxresdefault.jpg

Re: How the Apple Store Lost Its Luster

#192

Post by duxup » Tue, May 07, 2019, 4:32 PM UTC

CharlesColeman wrote: post #176

duxup wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like the standard inevitability for every service related thing that it degrades noticeably with time. Start out and offer a thing and tout the level of service, then shave off bits of service to save money until it is bad... probabbly still touting service. That's one of the reasons I left a career of 20 years supporting high end networking equipment. Company after company would talk big but the gradual (so…

> It seems like the standard inevitability for every service related thing that it degrades noticeably with time. I don't think that's an inevitability, just the effect of a particular type of corner-cutting business culture that's very prevalent nowadays. Today's business conventional wisdom isn't very wise, and I do hope that it's eventually replaced by something better.

It will be interesting to see how long it takes hold inside service related business units.

I saw a strong trend where good leadership in those business units simply leave that area and move into other business areas (engineering, sales etc) when it became clear that any initiatives they started that didn't involve cost cutting were not going to happen in any support related department.

There was a serious brain drain as far as leadership with vision, a backbone, knowledge as far as support organizations went. I had conversations with several who recognized that there was simply no future / chance of them being able to do much of anything in those roles so they simply moved on.

Meanwhile what was left were largely yes men who embraced the endless (often counter productive) cost cutting, and in doing so didn't really need / care to understand how things worked if all you had to do was slice out X% and hit some arbitrary metrics.

I fear that fundamentally support related business units are just not likely to have anyone who knows how to do it right (even if suddenly given resources), let alone care.

Re: How the Apple Store Lost Its Luster

#193

Post by jasode » Tue, May 07, 2019, 4:34 PM UTC

CharlesColeman wrote: post #181

jasode wrote: post #16

>[Angela Ahrendts'] overhaul of the Genius Bar has been especially controversial. Customers looking for technical advice or repairs must now check in with an employee, who types their request into an iPad. Then when a Genius is free, he or she must find the customer wherever they happen to be in the store. Ahrendts was determined to get rid of lineups, but now the stores are often crowded with people waiting for thei…

> I don't see how the old dedicated space for a Genius Bar would work better. The problem is that the old way tied tech support to a spatial location in the store. The new way assigned tech support to a person instead of a location. This allows any and every table in the store to become a temporary "genius bar" for that customer session. It's better UX. As a customer, I know what a service counter looks like, but I c…

>, I know what a service counter looks like, but I can't recognize a tech support employee roaming around.

But you don't have to recognize them. The idea is that the Apple employee greeting you at the door brings the tech support person to you.

>Lines are a well understood, tried-and-true technology for managing crowds. What they're doing is different but not better.

I guess I'm underestimating typical customers. Would most people really rather stand in line for 45 minutes to 2 hours instead of just sitting down somewhere? That seems very uncomfortable.

A lot of times, I see customers sitting on the cube chairs and waiting there. Example photo of those chairs: https://9to5mac.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2018/06/img_0...

Standing in line seems way more uncomfortable and therefore worse UX.

As comparison, Apple's "check out" process to buy something isn't tied to a specific location of a bank of cash registers. Instead, each employee uses their iPad/iPhone as a "roaming register" to process credit-cards and send receipts. In effect, the whole store's floor space acts as a checkout register. I just don't see customers complaining about that and wishing that Apple would just consolidate all checkout processes to a specific location because they prefer to stand in line. Customers seem to comprehend the "no line" checkout process without trouble. Apple does more sales than Tiffany's jewelry store that has traditional fixed cash registers. It seems like Apple extended the concept for "roaming checkout registers" to "roaming genius bars".

Re: How the Apple Store Lost Its Luster

#194

Post by megous » Tue, May 07, 2019, 4:41 PM UTC

BoorishBears wrote: post #183

megous wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HW design, that fails 3 times in a row in the same place (and ultimately even destroys the logic board - probably because of the short on the exposed cable wiring), and the service that fails to prevent that, I'd hardly call a "true heaven". It's terrible. Say, they failed to make the cable protected enough in the initial design. During the first service, they should just not replace the cable, they should also add t…

Do you know how many Dells, Acers, and Asus laptops have known problems that affect the vast majority of units but will still take shipping your computer on your dime and being without for weeks at a time? My mother can afford a Macbook, I've told her this, but she insists on buying cheap Dells on sale. In 3 years she's gone through 3 200-300$ Dells. Every time they break Dell comes back with some untenable repair ar…

Are you seriously comparing MBP to a $200-300 laptops?

Re: How the Apple Store Lost Its Luster

#195

Post by madengr » Tue, May 07, 2019, 4:41 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #162

bunderbunder wrote: post #61

The absolute worst thing about going to the Apple store is figuring out how to flag someone down if they're busy. For that reason alone, I've stopped recommending Apple products to my older relatives. Once upon a time, the dominant factor was that the walled garden allowed them to feel less intimidated by their technology, which left them feeling like their devices were vastly more capable, even when they technically…

>> figuring out how to flag someone down if they're busy. For that reason alone, I've stopped recommending Apple products to my older relatives. Be cute. Wear cool clothes. Don't be old. Look like an "influencer" with a million followers. The more you look like the people in the apple commercials the faster they will get to you. Above all things, apple stores are image-conscious. They are welcoming to people who fit…

Funny that they should ignore the old fogies without influence, as they are the ones that can most afford the Apple junk.

I’m pushing 50, and I don’t need a fucking loan to buy an iPhone.

Re: How the Apple Store Lost Its Luster

#196

Post by SyneRyder » Tue, May 07, 2019, 4:41 PM UTC

Kpourdeilami wrote: post #108

oldjokes wrote: post #19

I went in a few months to get a hardware thing fixed with an appointment set and nobody helped me. I waited for like 10 minutes past by appointment time and everyone was booked up. I tried pestering people but everyone was helping someone else and asked me to wait for another associate. Eventually I gave up and left the store. I'm sure their analytics never even noticed me, their data says I just never showed up for…

I have also had a bad experience with repairs. Took my laptop in for the first time for keyboard repair, when I got it back they had damaged the screen and some brown hues where randomly popping up on it (its apparently caused by leaving dust inside when assembling the laptop). I took it in the second time and they replaced the screen but didn't tighten the screws inside properly and now my screen wobbles a bit

This was how my keyboard looked after my last repair from Apple. They were so busy that day they shuffled me out without getting to inspect it in store:

https://twitter.com/syneryder/status/1066258885923635200

I mean, it was an easy enough fix that I ended up fixing it myself on this model rather than take it back. But for a company that used to pride itself on "painting both sides of the fence", now they're not even painting the front of the fence.

I've moved on to a Lenovo ThinkPad X1 now - I don't "love" it, but so far it's required no repairs and been reliable, while that MacBook Pro has had 6 repairs during its 3 year lifetime (all internal SATA cable replacements).

Re: How the Apple Store Lost Its Luster

#197

Post by jasode » Tue, May 07, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

csallen wrote: post #134

jasode wrote: post #16

>[Angela Ahrendts'] overhaul of the Genius Bar has been especially controversial. Customers looking for technical advice or repairs must now check in with an employee, who types their request into an iPad. Then when a Genius is free, he or she must find the customer wherever they happen to be in the store. Ahrendts was determined to get rid of lineups, but now the stores are often crowded with people waiting for thei…

The problem is that a line delivers crucial information: you can estimate roughly how much time it'll take before you're up next, you can see the constant progression, and you know you're not being forgotten or skipped over. If you want people to sit around all over the store in a haphazard fashion, you need to somehow provide these things. Without them, you will massively increase customer anxiety and therefore impa…

>The problem is that a line delivers crucial information: you can estimate roughly how much time it'll take before you're up next,

The Apple employee checking in customers usually tells you what the estimated wait time is. Last year when I went in for the free iPhone 6 replacement battery, she said the wait was about 2 hours. Sure enough, the wait turned out to be 2 hours.

>, you can see the constant progression,

I agree you can't see this. Maybe Apple can mount a LCD display that constantly updates the customer wait times. Something like the LCDs at airport gates showing standby passengers their status. Or they can simply text you a status every 10 minutes on your iPhone. That may be preferable as customers can leave the Apple Store and do something else to kill time and return later.

Re: How the Apple Store Lost Its Luster

#198

Post by groovybits » Tue, May 07, 2019, 4:52 PM UTC

ndiscussion wrote: post #185

groovybits wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The more you look like the people in the apple commercials the faster they will get to you. I'd say this is a bold claim w/o non-anecdotal evidence. Customer service should be non-discriminatory, no matter what product/service you're selling. If I, as a customer, cannot rely on an associate to address my problem simply because I do not dress like their image, then this is not a business worth walking into in the fi…

> I can walk into a grocery store with either a million-dollar suite, or a tshirt/shorts, and I still expect the same customer service. Oh. Is that borne from past experience? Because my experience living in a very accepting, liberal city, tells me the opposite. Unless your tshirt and shorts are from j crew.

I have lived in both rural and urban areas. I still fail to see how dress affects level of customer service I receive.

Yes, you may live in a more wealthy area, which may attract those with more expensive looking dress. But are telling me that you've personally witnessed a person denied customer service simply due to the fact that they do not dress in expensive clothing?

Re: How the Apple Store Lost Its Luster

#199

Post by bonestamp2 » Tue, May 07, 2019, 4:56 PM UTC

derefr wrote: post #70

Every Apple Store with a Genius Bar has a receptionist (a guy holding an iPad with the Genius Bar appointment schedule on it, running interference at the entrance to the store), and usually they try to get your attention if you look like you’re coming in for an appointment and/or a pickup rather than to browse; but I guess they can miss you if they’re busy. I think the Genius Bar “workflow” might depend on speaking t…

> at the entrance to the store

Ya, this is the problem. I don't think they're supposed to, but these guys seem to start helping people with actual problems (or sales) and then you can't find them or know who you're supposed to talk to.

What they really need is a self serve app for check-in, and in-store kiosk running that app, so people can check themselves in instead of waiting in line to check in. I realize this presents some other challenges, but self serve kiosks are an important part of retail these days and apple has adopted it in other ways (ex. in-store checkout).

Other than the mess around making and checking in, the servi ce is fairly good once the rep actually starts your appointment.

Re: How the Apple Store Lost Its Luster

#200

Post by sandworm101 » Tue, May 07, 2019, 5:01 PM UTC

groovybits wrote: post #198

ndiscussion wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can walk into a grocery store with either a million-dollar suite, or a tshirt/shorts, and I still expect the same customer service. Oh. Is that borne from past experience? Because my experience living in a very accepting, liberal city, tells me the opposite. Unless your tshirt and shorts are from j crew.

I have lived in both rural and urban areas. I still fail to see how dress affects level of customer service I receive. Yes, you may live in a more wealthy area, which may attract those with more expensive looking dress. But are telling me that you've personally witnessed a person denied customer service simply due to the fact that they do not dress in expensive clothing?

>> you've personally witnessed a person denied customer service simply due to the fact that they do not dress in expensive clothing?

Nobody is talking about denied anything. This is about speed and priority. It is no surprise that well-dressed attractive people get better customer service. This is just a little more true at apple than at other electronics stores.