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Launch HN: Prometheus (YC W19) – Remove CO2 from Air and Turn It into Gasoline

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451–460 of 589 posts

Re: Launch HN: Prometheus (YC W19) – Remove CO2 from Air and Turn It into Gasoline

#451

Is it possible to take the stuff from the air and store it in wood? If it was you could sell "CO2 storage furniture". This would make your business model green green. I cannot find the reference but I remember that a chemists organisation was years ago suggesting one should buy furniture/wood products. (This certainly sounds adventurous and I might not remember this correctly.) Certain types of wood come from control…

> Is it possible to take the stuff from the air and store it in wood?

Yes it is, it's called "forestry".

Re: Launch HN: Prometheus (YC W19) – Remove CO2 from Air and Turn It into Gasoline

#452
post #390

This can’t work because of Jevon’s paradox [0]. Every barrel of gasoline created by this process just displaces a barrel of fossil gasoline, pushing down the price of gasoline at the margins resulting in increased consumption. CO2 neutral gasoline can only work if you can get the cost below the marginal cost of production of fossil gasoline such that the oil stays in the ground. This is a massive ask on thermodynamic…

Jevon's paradox only applies because governments subsidize fossil fuels by failing to correct the market failure of their externalities. If they were taxed appropriately to compensate for the damage they do then synthetic hydrocarbon fuels would probably be viable in the cases where batteries are unsuitable because of insufficient energy density (e.g. long-distance aviation).

We heavily tax fuel in Turkey, yet everyone buys petrol powered cars.

Re: Launch HN: Prometheus (YC W19) – Remove CO2 from Air and Turn It into Gasoline

#453
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in the long term, it seems like you'd want to grab CO2 from point-sources. Sure you might need to also grab CO2 from open-air if you reach such a scale, but even at that point open-air would just be a supplement rather than the sole source (unless there's a reason to favor open-air exclusively?). So why start with open-air capture? Just seems weird to burn cash on a more expensive way of accomplishing the same g…

It takes time to integrate technology with existing utilities or businesses, rather than just renting a building and opening a window. I agree, they're going for the harder problem, but it's also the most scalable solution.

> I agree, they're going for the harder problem, but it's also the most scalable solution.

It's not really harder, just more expensive.

When major point-sources give off CO2, it's more concentrated. Once it gets into the atmosphere, the entropy goes up, and that entropy cost must be repaid to capture it again. Technical challenges aside, it's still another cost to be paid, making it more expensive.

I think people like the idea of open-air capture because it's just so easy to imagine. I'd guess that it's also easier to pitch to non-technical investors, largely because it sounds so elegant in its simplicity. I just don't see how it makes much technical or business sense, beyond that sex appeal -- which, to be fair, I can appreciate having its own uses.

Honestly, I'm skeptical that a robust analysis of the economics would yield a favorable conclusion. But the market isn't entirely rational, and I can imagine a strategy that sacrifices a measure of fiscal viability for sex appeal potentially profiting for it -- I'm guessing most when pitching to investors, but potentially when pitching to policy makers and the general public?

Which I think is what I find so interesting here. I mean, this doesn't look like a technically optimal strategy to me, but perhaps that isn't necessarily a bad thing?

This is, say that they optimize the plan in a fiscal sense -- would it still get funding from investors? Would people still want to buy into it as hard? Would the HackerNews thread still have so many positive comments?

Re: Launch HN: Prometheus (YC W19) – Remove CO2 from Air and Turn It into Gasoline

#455
I have high hopes for desalination with graphene or nanotubes, so I hope when Prometheus is up and running, you look into it again. I'd love to know what happens in your nanotube filters. I read somewhere that water can be ballistic in certain nanotubes, with zero resistance, so I wonder if you stumbled upon something amazing. You must be thinking about other uses. Too many comments here belabor the obvious, which you must get all the time, so kudos for sticking with it and overcoming resistance. It's cool that we don't ever have to run out of gasoline.

Re: Launch HN: Prometheus (YC W19) – Remove CO2 from Air and Turn It into Gasoline

#456
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm conflicted. This is clearly better than what we have but I was really hoping for a carbon negative future. I hope projects like this are a stepping stone and not a handbrake on progress.

If it breaks our dependency on fossil fuels then I'm all for it.

Ye on reflection and reading more comments from the founder I'm tentatively positive on this. Localised air pollution from burning of fuels and globally elevated co2 levels are two distinct problems. Solving one is already a big step in the right direction.

Re: Launch HN: Prometheus (YC W19) – Remove CO2 from Air and Turn It into Gasoline

#457
post #370

Correct me if I'm wrong, but planes look like a bad target for this fuel substitute : for 1 kg of CO2 emitted, estimates give a ~2 (or worse, 2.7 - 4) factor of radiative forcing (the potential for climate warming), due to the water vapor released at high altitudes. You'd have to capture 2 or 3 times more fuel that you'd burn in the sky for this to be "net zero climate", which is a better metric than "net zero carbon…

You seem to be right about the forcing of water being much higher [1], but CO2 has a nasty property as opposed to water: it stays in the atmosphere for much longer and contributes to warming for much longer than the water does. If temperatures get really bad in future, we can limit burning fuels and all the excess water will fall back down to oceans in few years. CO2 won't do such thing as fast. So even if we can't d…

Thanks for pointing this out. As for the temperature, the rise is already really bad right now, it didn't change the mind of the minority flying...

Re: Launch HN: Prometheus (YC W19) – Remove CO2 from Air and Turn It into Gasoline

#458
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it breaks our dependency on fossil fuels then I'm all for it.

Ye on reflection and reading more comments from the founder I'm tentatively positive on this. Localised air pollution from burning of fuels and globally elevated co2 levels are two distinct problems. Solving one is already a big step in the right direction.

Precisely! Replacing all gasoline and diesel engines, if that's even possible, will take decades. We need something other than fossil fuels for them in the mean time.

Re: Launch HN: Prometheus (YC W19) – Remove CO2 from Air and Turn It into Gasoline

#459

How could the math possibly work out on this? If a gallon of gas holds 33.70 kWh of energy, and you can get cheap electricity for $0.1/kWh, you're looking at $3.37/gallon if you have a magical process that converts with 100% efficiency. Even if you hit your efficiency goal, which would be impressive, who is paying $7/gallon for gas? Just buy an electric car. This can only possibly be useful when all of the oil is gon…

$7/gallon is the approximate price in Scandinavia. It's not a completely alien price.

Re: Launch HN: Prometheus (YC W19) – Remove CO2 from Air and Turn It into Gasoline

#460
post #146

How small can you scale it? Net energy metering for small-scale solar is not particularly widespread, and the terms are getting progressively less favorable over time. If you can make an inexpensive unit to turn a few kW of excess production for a few hours a day into fuel at 50% efficiency, you might be able to sell it in some markets. Think of it as a 25% round-trip efficiency battery with immense capacity that can…

If brewing alcohol, ethanol would probably be ruled out to avoid legal issues in many places.
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