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How Idle Heroes Made $100M in a Year

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Re: How Idle Heroes Made $100M in a Year

#121

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

shostack wrote: post #83
ricardobeat wrote: post #77

I had no idea what 'autobattle', 'heroes charge', 'idle game' meant, and wonder what exactly gets people interested in games of this kind. It doesn't even look like a game in the traditional sense at all - for enjoyment / fulfillment / fun. More like a colorful spreadsheet, with cheap visuals and not even mechanical skill. 'Gameplay' videos on youtube show people flipping cards and clicking through a dozen inventory…

If you want to get a taste with a quality game that doesn't prey on people with IAP, check out Kittens Game.[1] You can play free online. I paid $2 one-time fee to play on my phone. There's a vibrant community on /r/kittensgame on Reddit and the dev is active there. It is also arguably one of the most well-done idle/incremental games I've played after playing a few. The depth of it is jaw-dropping once you really sta…

How similar is Kittens Game to CivClicker?

http://dhmstark.co.uk/games/civclicker/

Re: How Idle Heroes Made $100M in a Year

#122

Post by Faark »

shados wrote: post #44
mattnewport wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's reasonable to draw distinctions among different types of games. Having spent much of my near 20 year career in the games industry, I'm saddened and disgusted by much of what has happened with the monetization strategies pioneered by mobile and free to play games. Maybe there's some grumpy old man syndrome at work but I also have a degree in psychology and the way these games are transparently optimized t…

> I'm saddened and disgusted by much of what has happened with the monetization strategies pioneered by mobile and free to play games. There's a lot to be said that its easier to attract 1000 people and extract $500 from 10 of them than it is to get 5 bucks from all of them. Even more so when you add piracy to the mix. Would these strategies have been a thing if so many people didn't flip their shit because a near AA…

> Would these strategies have been a thing if so many people didn't flip their shit because a near AAA level game tried to charge a few bucks?

Yes, since AAA Studios want all the money they can possibly get. Thus we'd always end with them trying to squeeze every last penny they can get out of their customers. And predatory tactics seem to work best for that.

Re: How Idle Heroes Made $100M in a Year

#123

Post by Faark »

shados wrote: post #102
mattnewport wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel happy with your purchases still? Is there any buyer's remorse? I'm interested to know how many people who weren't obviously exploited and could afford to spend hundreds or thousands on these games feel honestly satisfied with their purchases and wouldn't in retrospect have preferred to use that money for something else.

I have gone too far once or twice (out of hundreds....) where I felt bad about it. I've felt the same way about a major renovation once too though. It happens. The key is in your last sentence: "wouldn't in retrospect have preferred to use that money for something else." Unless I went and blew 50k on the game (which I fortunately never did and likely never will!), that's not even a question. Whatever money I'll spend…

If you don't mind... I'm eager to hear how this is... fun.

I've personally encountered whales in two situations:

One was someone in an MMORPG trading equipment. Okay, I kind of get the skipping work part, especially if the money doesn't matter.

But then there were the logs I've encountered while doing support for a browser based MMO RTS. Players clicking the same few buttons to get a small fixed amount of resources. Over and over and over again. Only interrupted to recharge the currency. How can that be satisfying? Just the "work" alone seemed demoralizing to me, but then even paying for that?

Have you ever experienced something like this? Is the process of spending enjoyable? Or does the end justify the means, especially for non-random outcomes?

Re: How Idle Heroes Made $100M in a Year

#124

Post by mattnewport »

Faark wrote: post #122
shados wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm saddened and disgusted by much of what has happened with the monetization strategies pioneered by mobile and free to play games. There's a lot to be said that its easier to attract 1000 people and extract $500 from 10 of them than it is to get 5 bucks from all of them. Even more so when you add piracy to the mix. Would these strategies have been a thing if so many people didn't flip their shit because a near AA…

> Would these strategies have been a thing if so many people didn't flip their shit because a near AAA level game tried to charge a few bucks? Yes, since AAA Studios want all the money they can possibly get. Thus we'd always end with them trying to squeeze every last penny they can get out of their customers. And predatory tactics seem to work best for that.

AAA studios didn't invent the model and they're still not the worst offenders, not because they're any more ethical but because they get more push back from their player base when try and take it too far. It was really the mobile and casual web / Facebook games that invented most of the dark patterns and are most effective at ruthlessly exploiting them.

Re: How Idle Heroes Made $100M in a Year

#125

Post by ricardobeat »

shostack wrote: post #83
ricardobeat wrote: post #77

I had no idea what 'autobattle', 'heroes charge', 'idle game' meant, and wonder what exactly gets people interested in games of this kind. It doesn't even look like a game in the traditional sense at all - for enjoyment / fulfillment / fun. More like a colorful spreadsheet, with cheap visuals and not even mechanical skill. 'Gameplay' videos on youtube show people flipping cards and clicking through a dozen inventory…

If you want to get a taste with a quality game that doesn't prey on people with IAP, check out Kittens Game.[1] You can play free online. I paid $2 one-time fee to play on my phone. There's a vibrant community on /r/kittensgame on Reddit and the dev is active there. It is also arguably one of the most well-done idle/incremental games I've played after playing a few. The depth of it is jaw-dropping once you really sta…

Oh, I can get behind that, played paperclips and it was pretty fun. For some reason the addition of [flash-era like] graphics on these mobile games turns me off completely.

Re: How Idle Heroes Made $100M in a Year

#126

Post by simonebrunozzi »

ordinaryradical wrote: post #12
simonebrunozzi wrote: post #8

What scares me about modern "casual" games like this one is their ability to extract money from people in a methodical, merciless way. There's no proper defense for most people. I fear our society will end up in a worse place because of businesses like this one.

I think if we could wrap our minds around what is happening psychologically in these games, most of them would be off-limits to children. What's interesting is that we've decided to define gambling according the rules of the game—in reality, "gambling" is probably more akin to a psychological state that can be induced by many different rulesets and experiences. Mobile games today are largely thinly-veiled attempts to…

> But the real question is: what happens to the mind of an eight-year-old if they have a gambling simulator in their pocket every day? What happens to their neurological development after five years of exposure to this "gambling" state?

This. Absolutely this. And scary as hell.

Re: How Idle Heroes Made $100M in a Year

#127

Post by chriselles »

A psychologist I have worked with on a human performance assessment programme and I have spoken at length about things like the ethics of psychologists working on gambling/gaming machines with their vastly increased potential for amygdala hijacking and behavioural nudging.

There will always be trained and capable folks willing to cash a big paycheque or justify unethical professional behaviour to further their objectives.

I think open frank discussion and resilience built within families and cohorts of friends is the best defence.

No one is immune.

But a small team based approach might be useful.

The concept of digital nutrition and labelling sounds promising:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1WXSjUpchQ

Re: How Idle Heroes Made $100M in a Year

#128

Post by celdon25 »

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #8

What scares me about modern "casual" games like this one is their ability to extract money from people in a methodical, merciless way. There's no proper defense for most people. I fear our society will end up in a worse place because of businesses like this one.

I stopped playing not long after they raised the star cap to 13. I had nearly a full 13 star team, and had spent $11000 on the game, half of which was after I was laid off from my job. At one point I was the strongest player on my server (S6), already a competitive server (See video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l3y6zOJtUM). There were people who had spent 3-5x as much as me and were still weaker because of suboptimal gameplay, but they could always spend more to catch up. This is not a brag, but rather an illustration of how rivalry between players at the top can be one of the strongest ways to motivate them to fork over more money. The amount of peer pressure from my clan leader to keep buying was insane. Eventually I told him I couldn't do it anymore.

It was fun for awhile but I am still shocked that I still spent thousands of dollars that I really needed at a later time. I fault myself more than the game's system for those decisions. Sometimes one can forget the value of money until once again experiencing the effects of not having it.

A lot of young professionals are making more money than they really need, and with the perception that they won't need it in the future. Therefore, there's a lot of people out there taking it for granted, and therefore not making it a second thought to spend on these pay to win mobile games. If you were to take away these mobile games, then this class of people would find some other equally stupid way to waste their money. In western society, there will never be a shortage of those possibilities.

Re: How Idle Heroes Made $100M in a Year

#129

Post by esyir »

jdreyfuss wrote: post #40
ordinaryradical wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if we could wrap our minds around what is happening psychologically in these games, most of them would be off-limits to children. What's interesting is that we've decided to define gambling according the rules of the game—in reality, "gambling" is probably more akin to a psychological state that can be induced by many different rulesets and experiences. Mobile games today are largely thinly-veiled attempts to…

I think this is an important point. The fact that some countries have started to impose regulation against some of the tactics these gaming companies use (like Belgium banning loot boxes[0]) suggests that this is starting to be recognized. I'm a big fan of video games, but games that are essentially thinly-veiled attempts to get people addicted and extract money make me queasy. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology…

On a side note, I find it extremely interesting that that same law you mention explicitly sidesteps an even older form of "child gambling" in the form of trading and collectible card games.

Re: How Idle Heroes Made $100M in a Year

#130

Post by esyir »

the_af wrote: post #112
TheOperator wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel these games are less dangerous than gambling is. It seems to me gambling has a greater ability to suck money out of peoples pockets. It's also the case these games are doing nothing magic the gathering hasn't been doing for decades. There is zero reason these games should not have 13+ restrictions however. Under 13 and you're too young to play these games. Don't care if this means there's a bit of a double sta…

I don't know. Magic the Gathering, while flawed, is a real game that can be played with skill. These online "games" have barely any game in them at all; it's very telling that in many of them you essentially spend money to bypass the tedious parts, which is actually all there is (as well as buying trinkets, skins, etc). If there's anything to compare these kind of "games" with, maybe it's precisely with online gambli…

Speaking an ex- and now current MTG player, it most definitely has a strong gambling aspect to it. If you've hung around box openings and such, you'll see the same highs and lows, especially right now when an IN PRINT card can and will retail for > 1000 USD.
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