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Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

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Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here we are in 2019 with no end in sight for Python 2.7 An end is in sight, is coming soon, and it’s sort of concerning that more folks haven’t realized it yet - https://pythonclock.org/

Seriously, I wonder how many of the people who proclaim "no end in sight" for 2.7 are actually using Python. In the usage I can see, the majority of the ecosystem seems to support 3, and at least a large minority has stopped supporting 2.

For those of us in the GIS space, 2.7 will be with us for a long time, as it's the only version that is supported by ArcGIS 10.x series. To say that people aren't rushing to ArcGIS Pro (which support 3.x) is quite an understatement, I expect to be writing Python 2.7 code for 5 years at the very least.

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#62
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the := PEP stunk badly of cargo cult programming, you see knee-jerk proposals like that every time a blog makes the rounds and Guido deserved the pushback

I had to look this one up. PEP 572 [1] introduces "the walrus operator". Your claim that it "stunk badly" made me think that perhaps it was proposed and rejected, however it's listed as 'accepted' and among the new features from CPython 3.8. I suppose if you're the BDFL you can get your PEPs approved ;) AFAICT it allows for optional binding. I suppose it might seem like 'cargo cult' because Rust and Swift have 'if le…

It was accepted but that PEP caused the whole kerfuffle correct? It became fashionable to have a strong opinion on assignment vs equality.

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#63
post #18

Serious question: did anything good come out of paying attention to Twitter? Like, ever? I'm sure it has its bubble-living adherents here. Then again, so did Quora. As for the claim of "questioning [his] authority", isn't that a given? With or without social media. That's pretty much human nature. It's up to you to establish the tone and medium of how people interact with you. Linus, for example, is pretty much stric…

> Serious question: did anything good come out of paying attention to Twitter? Like, ever?

There is no doubt that Twitter dramatically changed public dialog. It was/is revolutionary. Whether this revolution was a net positive or negative remains to be seen.

I'm highly doubtful. I actually believe that, despite the benefits, the net effect on public dialogue will be catastrophic. The overall attention span of people seems to have been limited to 282 characters, with a lifetime of perhaps 48 hours or less.

The argument that rises to the top is rarely the intellectually most valuable one, not that it would live on for more than a day or two anyway. Instead it's just the best punch line, one-uppance, or outrage fodder de jour.

Ironically, the best example of this deevolution IMO was Kara Swisher's interview of Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey, which was just a train wreck no one could follow [1].

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/02/its-i...

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#64
post #18

Serious question: did anything good come out of paying attention to Twitter? Like, ever? I'm sure it has its bubble-living adherents here. Then again, so did Quora. As for the claim of "questioning [his] authority", isn't that a given? With or without social media. That's pretty much human nature. It's up to you to establish the tone and medium of how people interact with you. Linus, for example, is pretty much stric…

I think Python 3 isn't that relevant for this. The nastiness was way more in more recent, smaller decisions than in the Python3 migration which has been a decided thing for quite a while.

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#65
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, I wonder how many of the people who proclaim "no end in sight" for 2.7 are actually using Python. In the usage I can see, the majority of the ecosystem seems to support 3, and at least a large minority has stopped supporting 2.

For those of us in the GIS space, 2.7 will be with us for a long time, as it's the only version that is supported by ArcGIS 10.x series. To say that people aren't rushing to ArcGIS Pro (which support 3.x) is quite an understatement, I expect to be writing Python 2.7 code for 5 years at the very least.

Wait, a company is selling a library and only supporting Python 2? And 3 support is a paid tier? Wow.

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, I wonder how many of the people who proclaim "no end in sight" for 2.7 are actually using Python. In the usage I can see, the majority of the ecosystem seems to support 3, and at least a large minority has stopped supporting 2.

Most Python code being written today is almost certainly Python 2. Or at least it's close. Google is still Py2 I believe, as is Dropbox. These are big Python shops. I write Python. I don't see an end in sight, yet. There is, however, forward progress.

Writing code compatible with Python 2 and 3 has been possible for over 5 years.

Dropbox migrated to Python 3.[1] So did Instagram.

[1] https://blogs.dropbox.com/tech/2019/02/incrementally-migrati...

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Python code being written today is almost certainly Python 2. Or at least it's close. Google is still Py2 I believe, as is Dropbox. These are big Python shops. I write Python. I don't see an end in sight, yet. There is, however, forward progress.

Writing code compatible with Python 2 and 3 has been possible for over 5 years. Dropbox migrated to Python 3.[1] So did Instagram. [1] https://blogs.dropbox.com/tech/2019/02/incrementally-migrati...

Dropbox migrated their desktop client code to Python 3.

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#68
It is really hard on maintainers. I think a lot of it is that old adage "It takes 10 positive things to counteract one negative one." And, for some reason, people on the Internet can choose to have any alternate persona they want, and what do they choose? The shittiest person imaginable.

There was a really good Keynote by Brett Cannon last year at PyCon about how hard, emotionally, maintaining OSS is: https://youtu.be/tzFWz5fiVKU?t=3259 -- Unfortunately the official post is buried after 50 minutes of lightning talks. He gets very emotional on stage. I was sitting with him before he gave this talk, it was a very hard talk for him to give, and so very important.

My own story like this: I took over maintenance of a module that had been abandoned, but after the better part of a decade I ran into a time in my life where I have little time for it. It had been languishing, but someone finally offered to help out on the maintenance. Great! I added them to the github project, they started triaging issues, and within a day this guy started spitting vitriol at the new maintainer.

I called this guy out, but he doubled down. I just locked the issue and moved on with my life. But this guy tracked me down and sent me an e-mail to my personal e-mail full of expletives. Followed quickly by an apology:

"I'm sorry, I didn't mean to send that e-mail from my work e-mail address, please don't get me fired."

Literally: No apology for being a jerk, just begging me not to share that exchange with their employer. All of the github comments he had made were removed or severely edited.

And... That person who offered to maintain that module? That was the last time they touched it.

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#69

It is really hard on maintainers. I think a lot of it is that old adage "It takes 10 positive things to counteract one negative one." And, for some reason, people on the Internet can choose to have any alternate persona they want, and what do they choose? The shittiest person imaginable. There was a really good Keynote by Brett Cannon last year at PyCon about how hard, emotionally, maintaining OSS is: https://youtu.b…

Clowns must be held accountable for their actions, otherwise they don't learn.

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Writing code compatible with Python 2 and 3 has been possible for over 5 years. Dropbox migrated to Python 3.[1] So did Instagram. [1] https://blogs.dropbox.com/tech/2019/02/incrementally-migrati...

Dropbox migrated their desktop client code to Python 3.

I got the impression from someone at Dropbox that it was more than that. That's all I know, though.
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