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Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

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Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#31

Post by devit »

beambot wrote: post #16
twerkmonsta wrote: post #10

No offense to Guido, and I love Python, but the transition from Python 2 to Python 3 is a reference point for me in terms of how NOT to update a programming language. Noone should ever be attacked, but surely someone deserves some criticism.

What would you have done differently? Frankly, it seemed pretty principled to me -- enough to where I wouldn't be comfortable Monday quarterbacking.

Make the 2 vs 3 language decision be module-specific with a single Python executable supporting both languages, allowing you to freely mix Python 2 and 3 files and libraries and thus not splitting the ecosystem.

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#32

Post by misthop »

gubbrora wrote: post #17

Sad to hear. I don't know what exactly he did for python project, but if we take the pudding as proof of the recipe he did a lot of things right Edit: I meant I don't know what he did as a bdfl day to day.

He literally invented the language, and until stepping down last year (as described in this link) he was the python BDFL (Benevolent Dictator for Life)

I apologize if this came off snarky - I did not mean for it to, I just wanted to emphasize Guido's contributions. (edited)

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#33

Post by guitarbill »

cletus wrote: post #24
thanatos_dem wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here we are in 2019 with no end in sight for Python 2.7 An end is in sight, is coming soon, and it’s sort of concerning that more folks haven’t realized it yet - https://pythonclock.org/

No one told me someone had put an arbitrary countdown on the Internet. Well that's completely different. Python may not officially support 2.7 in 2020+. What's to stop someone else backporting security patches and necessary fixes as needed ad infinitum? I think you're underestimating just how little impetus there is to migrate from 2 to 3.

> What's to stop someone else backporting security patches and necessary fixes as needed ad infinitum?

Nothing, it may even prove to be a business model, and vendors like Red Hat may be forced to do that anyway.

But back-porting security fixes to core Python 2.7 is one thing, but for many 3rd party libraries? Especially if they're GPL'd? That would take a coordinated effort, which again might happen, but hasn't materialized yet. So betting on that seems risky at the moment.

Python 2.7 EOL has been public knowledge for quite a while (and even pushed out once before). True, it is very convenient to forget about, and hope somebody else will sort out your tech debt.

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#34

Post by nabla9 »

dotdi wrote: post #8

> “Dripping water hollows out stone, not through force but through persistence.” ― Ovid It's not easy to take all the hate and ill-will day in day out. It's not even easy to ignore it, much less to deal with it. I respect Guido's decision even though I was quite sad to see him step down. It's not difficult to see that, with Pythons growing popularity, things would probably have become even worse for him in the future…

Social media gives unfair advantage to a horde of ankle biters, influences and opinionated individuals to affect things that matter.

Even completely harmful promotion can snowball into supporting harmful behaviour. CTO or senior developer in a small company may feel the need to promote stuff they do by writing technical articles and commenting ongoing debates in the social media. Attaching comments to anything that is trending is important if you want to promote stuff. Suddenly the person is committed with his own name to something he did not thing trough and unintentionally adding side support to some hate campaign.

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#35

Post by basic6 »

twerkmonsta wrote: post #10

No offense to Guido, and I love Python, but the transition from Python 2 to Python 3 is a reference point for me in terms of how NOT to update a programming language. Noone should ever be attacked, but surely someone deserves some criticism.

the := PEP stunk badly of cargo cult programming, you see knee-jerk proposals like that every time a blog makes the rounds and Guido deserved the pushback

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#36

Post by misthop »

Many people here are referencing the 2 to 3 process as germane to the discussion, but it was really PEP 572 (the walrus operator := ) that was it for him. PEP 572 was _hugely_ contentious among the core devs, much more so than the 2 to 3 transition.

Citation - Yesterday at Pycon during the Steering Council meeting he stated that he tendered his BDFL resignation the morning after approving that PEP

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#37

Post by mnd999 »

StavrosK wrote: post #21
thanatos_dem wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here we are in 2019 with no end in sight for Python 2.7 An end is in sight, is coming soon, and it’s sort of concerning that more folks haven’t realized it yet - https://pythonclock.org/

Seriously, I wonder how many of the people who proclaim "no end in sight" for 2.7 are actually using Python. In the usage I can see, the majority of the ecosystem seems to support 3, and at least a large minority has stopped supporting 2.

I had to write some 2.7 the other day - a vendor supplied docker image we needed to run a script on only supported that version. Until stuff like that goes away, we’re still gonna be stuck with 2.7.

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#38

Post by gwern »

cletus wrote: post #18

Serious question: did anything good come out of paying attention to Twitter? Like, ever? I'm sure it has its bubble-living adherents here. Then again, so did Quora. As for the claim of "questioning [his] authority", isn't that a given? With or without social media. That's pretty much human nature. It's up to you to establish the tone and medium of how people interact with you. Linus, for example, is pretty much stric…

> Serious question: did anything good come out of paying attention to Twitter? Like, ever? I'm sure it has its bubble-living adherents here. Then again, so did Quora.

You could've said much the same thing of Usenet too. GvR didn't seem to have any trouble with Usenet back then, but 30 years later, at age 63, apparently now Twitter is the ne plus ultra of toxicity (which will amuse everyone who remembers Usenet). Maybe GvR has just gotten old, and it's not Twitter at all.

Re: Guido blames social media for his decision to abandon the supervision of Python

#39

Post by StavrosK »

Analemma_ wrote: post #23
StavrosK wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, I wonder how many of the people who proclaim "no end in sight" for 2.7 are actually using Python. In the usage I can see, the majority of the ecosystem seems to support 3, and at least a large minority has stopped supporting 2.

I think they’re both true. People who are “extremely online” and up-to-date with technology developments are all done with Python 2.7 and can say the end is near, but they’re not the only people. There’s an entire dark matter world of businesses still on 2.7, maintained by people who don’t live in the Bay and don’t read Hacker News, and so they’re largely invisible. It will be a long time before they all switch.

What about the people who do read HN and comment here? My reply was to one such comment.
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