Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says • Hacker News Board

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#71

Post by saiya-jin » Mon, May 06, 2019, 1:34 PM UTC

neuronic wrote: post #19

perfunctory wrote: post #11

We keep hearing that individual actions don't matter and that we need a system change instead. I used to hold the same opinion for the very long time. However, since recently I started to turn around. For the last 30 years governments and politicians have proven incapable to do anything about global heating. What makes us think it will be any different in the coming years. Scientists keep producing report after repor…

> Don't upgrade your phone. Seriously. The market makes this easy nowadays. Unless your phone is broken/severely outdated there is next to zero benefit to upgrading at this time. Prices for flagships become prohibitive as well. Upgrading phones every 1-2 years is a dead tradition outside of contract incentives, only relevant to hyper enthusiasts (r/android etc...). Even then I am not sure why aside from corporation b…

Err, not really in all cases. An example - my crappy 3-year old Huawei Honor 5x is utter piece of st. I bought it as a temporary cheap need-phone-now solution because my previous phone got stolen in Paris. I tried to go the way you suggest, but there are limits and I am hitting them hard.

Not only is the battery severely degraded by now (still +-usable though), but I can't update any app for last 6 months simply because there is no space on phone anymore (that 32GB microsd card means nothing to that ancient Android 6). I can remove properly functional useful apps from phone and thus reducing its usability, but that's a bad deal. The worst part is sluggishness though - it can easily take 30 seconds just to be able to start Firefox and begin to type the URL. Or start maps and begin to type address. Everything is super slow.

Its a good tool to train my patience, but as actual usability goes, I have to upgrade. I need to keep my sanity.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#72

Post by MiroF » Mon, May 06, 2019, 1:35 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #56

perfunctory wrote: post #11

We keep hearing that individual actions don't matter and that we need a system change instead. I used to hold the same opinion for the very long time. However, since recently I started to turn around. For the last 30 years governments and politicians have proven incapable to do anything about global heating. What makes us think it will be any different in the coming years. Scientists keep producing report after repor…

> “ Reduce your meat consumption as much as you can. Don't go all the way vegan, but make meat a special treat not a commodity. ” No thank you. I know vegans have an anti-meat agenda and have been promoting this idea, however industrial agriculture as a whole is not sustainable, not just meat, and switching to a plants-based diet won’t save the planet. The elephant in the room is that sustainable farming needs to be…

What a bunch of bullshit. I'm not a vegan, even though I'm sure you'll label me as having an "anti-meat agenda." I have substantially cut down on my own meat consumption due to the environmental impact.

> industrial agriculture as a whole is not sustainable, not just meat, and switching to a plants-based diet won’t save the planet.

Just because two things both cause emissions doesn't mean one isn't much, much worse than the other. The emissions impact of meat is far worse than the alternatives - beef emits a factor of 17x as much GHG than tofu.

Industrial farming at scale can oftentimes lower the GHG emissions per unit of food (that's how scaling works, actually). The problem with factory farms is when it is applied to (you guessed it) the mass production of meat.

> Sorry, but most vegans have serious nutrient deficiencies, like proteins, vitamin B12 or K2. Humans are meant to be omnivores

First, this is just not true and nutrient deficiencies can be easily substituted for. None of this is a reason to not "reduce your meat consumption," specifically when humans today consume substantially more meat than they ever did pre-agriculture (despite being "meant" to be omnivores).

> The vegan diet is not sustainable

Based on what? It's more resource sustainable than our current level of meat consumption, for sure.

Look, you're free to make the choices you want - but don't pretend that they're more environmentally sustainable or rational than reducing your meat intake. You like meat and are putting your preference for meat above the associated environmental concerns. Be honest with yourself.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#73

Post by zdkl » Mon, May 06, 2019, 1:36 PM UTC

Udik wrote: post #65

bad_user wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “ Reduce your meat consumption as much as you can. Don't go all the way vegan, but make meat a special treat not a commodity. ” No thank you. I know vegans have an anti-meat agenda and have been promoting this idea, however industrial agriculture as a whole is not sustainable, not just meat, and switching to a plants-based diet won’t save the planet. The elephant in the room is that sustainable farming needs to be…

> sustainable farming needs to be local, it needs natural fertilizers and it needs grazing animals. I suspect that the "sustainable farming" you're describing, if applied at scale (= enough to feed 7 billion people) would require so much land as to completely devastate and replace every natural environment still left on earth. Little crops and pastures, as pleasing as they are to the eye, are not a natural environmen…

Nothing "natural" would sustain 7b+ people anyway, so what's your point against "sustainable" as a reasonable (and considerable) improvement?

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#74

Post by sc4les » Mon, May 06, 2019, 1:36 PM UTC

Udik wrote: post #65

bad_user wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “ Reduce your meat consumption as much as you can. Don't go all the way vegan, but make meat a special treat not a commodity. ” No thank you. I know vegans have an anti-meat agenda and have been promoting this idea, however industrial agriculture as a whole is not sustainable, not just meat, and switching to a plants-based diet won’t save the planet. The elephant in the room is that sustainable farming needs to be…

> sustainable farming needs to be local, it needs natural fertilizers and it needs grazing animals. I suspect that the "sustainable farming" you're describing, if applied at scale (= enough to feed 7 billion people) would require so much land as to completely devastate and replace every natural environment still left on earth. Little crops and pastures, as pleasing as they are to the eye, are not a natural environmen…

Yeah, this sounds like typical carnist propaganda. Meat has some magical ingredient needed for health that no one can name? Almost all peer-reviewed studies show that vegans (diet done properly) are the only group within healthy range for almost all markers; most meat eaters are deficient in B12 etc etc. It is strikingly similar to smoking: educating the public takes a very long time, laws are always behind and good news about your bad habits become industry-funded public "knowledge". Maybe we will have figured out how not to kill ourselves by the time we colonize mars

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#75

Post by sailingparrot » Mon, May 06, 2019, 1:36 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #56

perfunctory wrote: post #11

We keep hearing that individual actions don't matter and that we need a system change instead. I used to hold the same opinion for the very long time. However, since recently I started to turn around. For the last 30 years governments and politicians have proven incapable to do anything about global heating. What makes us think it will be any different in the coming years. Scientists keep producing report after repor…

> “ Reduce your meat consumption as much as you can. Don't go all the way vegan, but make meat a special treat not a commodity. ” No thank you. I know vegans have an anti-meat agenda and have been promoting this idea, however industrial agriculture as a whole is not sustainable, not just meat, and switching to a plants-based diet won’t save the planet. The elephant in the room is that sustainable farming needs to be…

> "however industrial agriculture as a whole is not sustainable, not just meat, and switching to a plants-based diet won’t save the planet"

Sure, except meat is an order of magnitude less sustainable than plant, because you extract ~10% of the energy from the meat you eat, and the animals the meat comes from extract only ~10% from the plant they eat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_efficiency.

> "Also you have to take the cost to healthcare into account. The vegan diet is not sustainable [...]"

Initial comment talked about reducing consumption, not stopping it altogether, you don't need to have a steak in your plate every day to get enough vitamins/proteins.

Regarding the cost to healthcare, assuming you are in a country similar to the US, if everyone went vegan tomorrow, paying for the cost of a few pills of vitamin/protein per person compared to the disaster that is US (and most western countries for that matter) diet currently, it would be a massive reduction in cost.

If you don't want to stop eating meat because you like it so much, that's fine, but it seems like you are throwing pseudo-scientific arguments at plant-based diet to make you feel less bad about your choices.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#76

Post by prittgluestick » Mon, May 06, 2019, 1:38 PM UTC

tannhaeuser wrote: post #54

perfunctory wrote: post #11

We keep hearing that individual actions don't matter and that we need a system change instead. I used to hold the same opinion for the very long time. However, since recently I started to turn around. For the last 30 years governments and politicians have proven incapable to do anything about global heating. What makes us think it will be any different in the coming years. Scientists keep producing report after repor…

- Stop promoting/using power-inefficient, developer-centric webapps and start working on metrics for power efficiency - Stop churning through overpowered smartphones - Give up on "agile" project management ideas with daily standups in-person, fiddling with stories written on paper cards, and similar childish approaches

How does abandoning agile have anything to do with being greener?

I do hold similar opinions on some agile practices as you do btw.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#77

Post by perfunctory » Mon, May 06, 2019, 1:39 PM UTC

samatman wrote: post #68

perfunctory wrote: post #11

We keep hearing that individual actions don't matter and that we need a system change instead. I used to hold the same opinion for the very long time. However, since recently I started to turn around. For the last 30 years governments and politicians have proven incapable to do anything about global heating. What makes us think it will be any different in the coming years. Scientists keep producing report after repor…

The difficulty this poses is that the market may as well be designed to frustrate this approach. It works only in the absence of marginal consumers, which, in practice, never happens. Stop flying? The airlines still have to amortize the cost of their airplanes and bulk fuel purchases. You've subsidized discount flights, paying with your virtue. Work remotely, so you don't need to buy a car? That's one more car that's…

> The difficulty this poses is that the market may as well be designed to frustrate this approach.

You bet it does. I didn't say it was gonna be easy.

> We need actual solutions.

Sure. But those actual solutions will necessarily include mandated reduction in flying, driving, meat consumption etc. We might as well show that we are ready to accept it.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#78

Post by MiroF » Mon, May 06, 2019, 1:40 PM UTC

tenpies wrote: post #59

bryanlarsen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next U.S. federal election is an excellent opportunity to address climate change. Ensure that the Democratic primary chooses a leader with a good plan, and then ensure that he/she wins in 2020.

Except it's also not. As a continent, Asia is the largest polluter by far. What's worst, they're exporting those practices to Africa. Meanwhile, the Anglo-West is hyper-focused on the US because there's a president they don't like. This has been a blessing (now the average Anglo-Westerner at least pretends to care about the environment), but also a curse (they think the US is the only country that can save humanity).

There's actually a whole body of literature out there on climate justice, if you want to take a look for answers.

One of the primary ones is that most of the developed world has gotten to the quality of life it has today through very high historic emission levels (and continues to have higher per capita emissions). Additional emissions in the West go towards maintaining our very, very high quality of life - emissions in the developing world (like Asia) go towards bringing millions of people out of poverty.

Asia may be the largest polluter by far, it also happens to be the continent with the most people and the most people in poverty.

Nobody thinks that the US is the only country that can save humanity (even if the US cut to 0, that wouldn't be sufficient, although it'd be approaching it), but if the US, which easily emits 4-6x more than most people per capita is unwilling to cut, than we are totally FUBAR on a global scale.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#79

Post by MiroF » Mon, May 06, 2019, 1:42 PM UTC

zdkl wrote: post #73

Udik wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sustainable farming needs to be local, it needs natural fertilizers and it needs grazing animals. I suspect that the "sustainable farming" you're describing, if applied at scale (= enough to feed 7 billion people) would require so much land as to completely devastate and replace every natural environment still left on earth. Little crops and pastures, as pleasing as they are to the eye, are not a natural environmen…

Nothing "natural" would sustain 7b+ people anyway, so what's your point against "sustainable" as a reasonable (and considerable) improvement?

The point is that local and "natural" is not sustainable. We need scale for a reason.

Re: Up to one million species are on the verge of extinction, U.N. panel says

#80

Post by ljcn » Mon, May 06, 2019, 1:43 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #56

perfunctory wrote: post #11

We keep hearing that individual actions don't matter and that we need a system change instead. I used to hold the same opinion for the very long time. However, since recently I started to turn around. For the last 30 years governments and politicians have proven incapable to do anything about global heating. What makes us think it will be any different in the coming years. Scientists keep producing report after repor…

> “ Reduce your meat consumption as much as you can. Don't go all the way vegan, but make meat a special treat not a commodity. ” No thank you. I know vegans have an anti-meat agenda and have been promoting this idea, however industrial agriculture as a whole is not sustainable, not just meat, and switching to a plants-based diet won’t save the planet. The elephant in the room is that sustainable farming needs to be…

The message you're replying to specifically said not vegan. Your points about farming might be good but the vegan stuff is a straw man.

The best diet for health and the environment[0] is high in whole grains, vegetables, fruit, nuts, seeds, with small amounts of meat and sugar. Making meat a treat (as written above) is absolutely right.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/16/new-plan...