U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps' • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#41

Post by throwaway798 » Sat, May 04, 2019, 11:56 PM UTC

tepidandroid wrote: post #35

throwaway798 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> I made this account just to reply to you, because as of now, I sincerely think you are either uninformed or lying. Gee, you sure got me there. Ok, so let's say you mercifully bestow upon me the benefit of the doubt that I did not remember the exact details of the incident. How does that change the thrust of the argument? The argument was the reason for mass surveillance and communication controls in the region is t…

[...] what exactly does that change?

Well, nothing.

But you should really add that the Han population is seen as some sort of colonisation.

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#42

Post by EGreg » Sun, May 05, 2019, 1:29 AM UTC

tepidandroid wrote: post #21

Noos wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it true, though? You are arguing that its baseless propaganda without refuting anything. Just that the evolution of the claims has gotten more severe. The best argument if so is just the truth. Link sources and publish things showing there really aren't 3 million people detained or that it's not a camp-style thing. The problem with Iraq is that Saddam simply could have told the truth and let UN inspectors in, but…

The burden of proof is not on me to prove they aren't doing these things. The burden of proof is on those doing the accusing. As in the case of Huawei, there has not been one objective shred of proof. And no, I don't consider WaPo, NYT, and its ilk anywhere near objective journalism. If the lack of proof is because the CCP is denying journalists access to Xinjiang, then how can there be any conclusive evidence? Are t…

[flagged]

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#43

Post by dang » Sun, May 05, 2019, 2:07 AM UTC

originldirgibl wrote: post #32

zachguo wrote: post #15

Another scaremongering article from this author again. This author's company directly competes with surveillance and security companies from China. Official number is 13k [1], but people think those jaw dropping estimations from religious groups are more believable. [1] https://www.apnews.com/0e3b005d281345278ed470823096ec9b

I don't know this guy specifically, but it's been reported by other sources. This is a real thing that's happening. I find the general Chinese apologism on this site strange. Even if it were 13k why would it not be an issue that China is placing people in concentration camps? Not even to get into the argument about the reliability of the 13k number because that's just laughable given literally every source that isn't…

There is not "general Chinese apologism" on HN. What there is, is divisiveness on China-related topics that is growing for social, geopolitical, and media reasons completely beyond the scope of this site. Moreover, the population on HN is majority Western (50% US, 30% Europe, 7% Australia/Canada, if I remember correctly), so views here are skewed in rather the opposite direction to what you suggest.

HN users don't have to hold any particular views on these topics but they absolutely have to treat each other respectfully, including by not calling names (such as "Chinese apologism"), and nationalistic flamewar is not permitted.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#44

Post by dang » Sun, May 05, 2019, 4:23 AM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #42

tepidandroid wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burden of proof is not on me to prove they aren't doing these things. The burden of proof is on those doing the accusing. As in the case of Huawei, there has not been one objective shred of proof. And no, I don't consider WaPo, NYT, and its ilk anywhere near objective journalism. If the lack of proof is because the CCP is denying journalists access to Xinjiang, then how can there be any conclusive evidence? Are t…

[flagged]

Insinuating that someone is shilling is explicitly against the site guidelines. Saying you're not saying it is saying it.

Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting here. And please keep nationalistic flamewar far away from this site.

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#45

Post by dang » Sun, May 05, 2019, 4:23 AM UTC

elliekelly wrote: post #13

tepidandroid wrote: post #9

I actually find the evolution of this blatant, shameless propaganda amusing. You could actually observe, in real-time, the ramping up of accusations and headline hysterics in sequence: 1. 50k muslims detained 2. 100k muslims detained and put into re-education camps 3. 500k muslims arrested and put into concentration camps! 4. One million muslims torn out of homes and put into concentration camps and getting their org…

It seems a lot of your recent comment history is defensive of the status quo in China. I'd be curious to know your background. Do you live there?

In a climate where people are accusing others left and right of being shills and foreign agents, this comment crosses the line into personal attack. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and don't post like that here.

Edit: I saw your clarification downthread and believe you, but it's still bad to post like this. Most of the time, such comments don't have a benign meaning at all. If you're going to wade into such territory, the burden of proof is unfortunately on you to demonstrate good intent. (By "you" of course, I mean not you personally, but any of us.)

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#46

Post by dang » Sun, May 05, 2019, 4:27 AM UTC

throwaway798 wrote: post #34

tepidandroid wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to understand the context for such actions. Right or wrong, heavy handed or not, there is always a context. On HN and other social media, users always seem to think there is some kind of inherent malice and genocidal intent in every Chinese action, which is utterly absurd. In this particular situation, the context was 200 Han Chinese being ethnically cleansed in Xinjiang, dragged out of buses and cars…

[flagged]

Crossing into personal attack is not ok here. Please do not post like this to HN, or create accounts to do it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#47

Post by dang » Sun, May 05, 2019, 4:27 AM UTC

sarchertech wrote: post #22

tepidandroid wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to understand the context for such actions. Right or wrong, heavy handed or not, there is always a context. On HN and other social media, users always seem to think there is some kind of inherent malice and genocidal intent in every Chinese action, which is utterly absurd. In this particular situation, the context was 200 Han Chinese being ethnically cleansed in Xinjiang, dragged out of buses and cars…

[flagged]

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#48

Post by dang » Sun, May 05, 2019, 4:30 AM UTC

14 wrote: post #14

[flagged]

> I will not associate with any business or person who is Chinese. Are my thoughts misguided here?

Yes, that's deeply misguided and, worse, totally unacceptable in HN comments. Conflating Chinese people with Nazis is beyond the pale, just as it would be for any nation.

Imagine what it would be like for someone with a background from China to be browsing HN and run across a statement like that. At least a minimal ability to put yourself in the other person's position is a prerequisite for participating in the community here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I don't know what we can do to prevent HN from sliding into the hell of nationalistic flamewar. The problem is getting noticeably worse and it's deeply dismaying.

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#49

Post by EGreg » Sun, May 05, 2019, 4:55 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #44

EGreg wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Insinuating that someone is shilling is explicitly against the site guidelines. Saying you're not saying it is saying it. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting here. And please keep nationalistic flamewar far away from this site.

Thanks, reviewed. Sorry about the shilling comment. It was referencing to something the commenter themselves said, and others have also mentioned, given his recent comment history on several threads going back over a week:

Sorry, but I will not provide more information about myself than I have to. It doesn't matter anyhow since I will be accused of being a CCP _shill_ 50c poster anyway.

But I am confused about nationalistic flamewar as distinct from discussing the topic of the original post. Its veracity was actively questioned by the commenter in several comments, who asked for proof. Since the welfare of large numbers of people is at stake, it’s important to make sure whether this is happening or not. I am sure it would be the same conversation whether the nation was China, India, USA, and so on. If this is indeed not happening, that is very important also. In any case I thought I was directly addressing the topic. I am personally very far from nationalistic so I want to understand better how my comment comes across.

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#50

Post by dang » Sun, May 05, 2019, 5:31 AM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #49

dang wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insinuating that someone is shilling is explicitly against the site guidelines. Saying you're not saying it is saying it. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting here. And please keep nationalistic flamewar far away from this site.

Thanks, reviewed. Sorry about the shilling comment. It was referencing to something the commenter themselves said, and others have also mentioned, given his recent comment history on several threads going back over a week: Sorry, but I will not provide more information about myself than I have to. It doesn't matter anyhow since I will be accused of being a CCP _shill_ 50c poster anyway. But I am confused about nation…

If a comment goes through the Uyghurs, Falun Gong and Tibet on its way to Nazis, I think it's safe to say that intellectual curiosity has fled, making the comment off topic for Hacker News.

Many vitally important topics are off topic for Hacker News. Most of them, in fact. This is a specific kind of website, for smaller, curious topics—the kind that are the first to drown in a political deluge.