U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps' • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#21

Post by tepidandroid » Sat, May 04, 2019, 5:54 PM UTC

Noos wrote: post #10

tepidandroid wrote: post #9

I actually find the evolution of this blatant, shameless propaganda amusing. You could actually observe, in real-time, the ramping up of accusations and headline hysterics in sequence: 1. 50k muslims detained 2. 100k muslims detained and put into re-education camps 3. 500k muslims arrested and put into concentration camps! 4. One million muslims torn out of homes and put into concentration camps and getting their org…

Is it true, though? You are arguing that its baseless propaganda without refuting anything. Just that the evolution of the claims has gotten more severe. The best argument if so is just the truth. Link sources and publish things showing there really aren't 3 million people detained or that it's not a camp-style thing. The problem with Iraq is that Saddam simply could have told the truth and let UN inspectors in, but…

The burden of proof is not on me to prove they aren't doing these things. The burden of proof is on those doing the accusing. As in the case of Huawei, there has not been one objective shred of proof. And no, I don't consider WaPo, NYT, and its ilk anywhere near objective journalism.

If the lack of proof is because the CCP is denying journalists access to Xinjiang, then how can there be any conclusive evidence?

Are they going to invade and bomb China to find the existence or non-existence of such evidence?

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#22

Post by sarchertech » Sat, May 04, 2019, 5:58 PM UTC

tepidandroid wrote: post #17

tomohawk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CCP (Chinese Communist Pary) is locking up people due to their ethnicity and/or beliefs. Inside the concentration camps, they are attempting to indoctrinate the people into CCP dogma, and away from their traditional beliefs. They are also using them for slave labor. Outside the camps, the CCP has installed suffocating surveilance systems to watch every action. They also have placed people into apartment blocks to…

It's important to understand the context for such actions. Right or wrong, heavy handed or not, there is always a context. On HN and other social media, users always seem to think there is some kind of inherent malice and genocidal intent in every Chinese action, which is utterly absurd. In this particular situation, the context was 200 Han Chinese being ethnically cleansed in Xinjiang, dragged out of buses and cars…

[flagged]

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#23

Post by tepidandroid » Sat, May 04, 2019, 5:59 PM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #19

zachguo wrote: post #15

Another scaremongering article from this author again. This author's company directly competes with surveillance and security companies from China. Official number is 13k [1], but people think those jaw dropping estimations from religious groups are more believable. [1] https://www.apnews.com/0e3b005d281345278ed470823096ec9b

If you don't like the author. Ignore him. Here's a quote from the US Secretary of State: "We watch the massive human rights violations in Xinjiang where over a million people are being held in a humanitarian crisis that is the scale of what took place in the 1930s. And we see American businesses and their technology being used to help facilitate that activity from the Chinese government. It’s something worthy of thin…

The U.S Secretary of state, just like the entire current U.S administration, suffer from the same issue.

A complete and utter lack of credibility.

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#24

Post by learc83 » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:06 PM UTC

tepidandroid wrote: post #23

learc83 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't like the author. Ignore him. Here's a quote from the US Secretary of State: "We watch the massive human rights violations in Xinjiang where over a million people are being held in a humanitarian crisis that is the scale of what took place in the 1930s. And we see American businesses and their technology being used to help facilitate that activity from the Chinese government. It’s something worthy of thin…

The U.S Secretary of state, just like the entire current U.S administration, suffer from the same issue. A complete and utter lack of credibility.

So we agree it's not the writer making this up for personal gain then.

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#25

Post by tepidandroid » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:12 PM UTC

sarchertech wrote: post #22

tepidandroid wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to understand the context for such actions. Right or wrong, heavy handed or not, there is always a context. On HN and other social media, users always seem to think there is some kind of inherent malice and genocidal intent in every Chinese action, which is utterly absurd. In this particular situation, the context was 200 Han Chinese being ethnically cleansed in Xinjiang, dragged out of buses and cars…

[flagged]

Please stop invoking the term concentration camp. We all know the imagery that term conjures (perhaps that is the intent of users such as yourself). What the CCP is doing is in no way comparable to Auschwitz.

Ask yourself what is more likely:

1. The government of China is rounding up millions upon millions of Uighurs in hard labor camps, harvesting their organs and working them to death.

or

2. The government of China is trying to contain further unrest after what happened during the Urumqi riots by subjecting thousands of people to re-education, where they sit for hours each day reading and listening to government propaganda.

Do you really think any member of the CCP would find scenario #1 would be in China's best interest, especially given China's increasing exposure on the world stage? Any great defender of freedom and democracy in the world would salivate at the thought of scenario #1 as it would give them every excuse they could possibly need to "liberate" such an oppressed peoples.

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#26

Post by sarchertech » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:23 PM UTC

tepidandroid wrote: post #25

sarchertech wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Please stop invoking the term concentration camp. We all know the imagery that term conjures (perhaps that is the intent of users such as yourself). What the CCP is doing is in no way comparable to Auschwitz. Ask yourself what is more likely: 1. The government of China is rounding up millions upon millions of Uighurs in hard labor camps, harvesting their organs and working them to death. or 2. The government of China…

>Please stop invoking the term concentration camp. We all know the imagery that term conjures (perhaps that is the intent of users such as yourself).

If you don't want people to say you're putting people in concentration camps, perhaps you shouldn't remove millions of people of a specific ethnicity from their homes in order to lock them up in a camp for an indefinite amount of time.

Uighurs have been clashing with the Chinese government for over a century. The government is just attempting to cement their grip on Xinjiang by wiping out Uighur identity to remove a rebellious element. Concentration camps rarely start out as death camps. When governments realize that the only real way to remove an ethnicity is to kill them, that's when they turn into extermination camps. The only real hope we have to prevent this, is to convince the Chinese government that the bad press isn't worth it.

>#1 as it would give them every excuse they could possibly need to "liberate" such an oppressed peoples.

There is no realistic scenario that leads to military intervention within the borders of a country with nuclear weapons and the capability to deliver them.

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#27

Post by tepidandroid » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:31 PM UTC

14 wrote: post #14

[flagged]

You have the right to walk or not walk with whoever you want and associate with or not associate with whichever race you choose.

What makes you feel the need to have your thoughts publicly vindicated?

> I keep seeing this and I ask at what point do we start shaming Chinese nationalists

> the Chinese way is not right and I will not associate with any business or person who is Chinese

From this statement it seems as though you're trying to generate some kind of grass-roots support for that line of thinking? If that's the case, there are already well established communities for that, such as stormfront.

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#28

Post by tepidandroid » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:38 PM UTC

kennywinker wrote: post #8

bayareanative wrote: post #3

Meanwhile, the US military is planning how to deal with so-called "terrorists," many of whom were peasants sold to warlords to collect bounties, to die of old-age in Gitmo. Also, ripping children from their parents in migrant and asylum-seekers concentration camps. Pot, meet kettle.

While I agree both of those things are repulsive - the scales do not match up. There are 3 million people in camps in china, vs about 1000 at the height of gitmo. The border camps come a little closer in raw numbers - somewhere around 0.5 millions people per year, but they are detained for short periods of time. Estimates vary but we’re talking a few days. Scale matters. Don’t try to downplay how completely fucked up…

You're absolutely right: scale matters. The camps are not really comparable to gitmo.

They are perhaps more akin to the U.S prison system were thousands upon thousands of blacks and latinos are held, sometimes in isolation, sometimes for years, without charge. Pretty fucked up.

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#29

Post by tepidandroid » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:40 PM UTC

jvanderbot wrote: post #7

tomohawk wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China: let's lock up these people because of their race or beliefs US: we need to lock these people up because (gitmo) they're terrorists, or (border) they committed a felony. Yep - they're completely equivalent!

They'll bury it from HN front-page just by making adversarial comments, and that's the goal.

That's not how the voting system works.

Re: U.S. Accuses China of Detaining Up to 3M Muslims in 'Concentration Camps'

#30

Post by elliekelly » Sat, May 04, 2019, 6:41 PM UTC

tepidandroid wrote: post #20

elliekelly wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems a lot of your recent comment history is defensive of the status quo in China. I'd be curious to know your background. Do you live there?

I am not defensive of the status quo in China. I'm simply presenting an alternative viewpoint to the recent, ongoing anti-China media/social-media blitz campaign. Sorry, but I will not provide more information about myself than I have to. It doesn't matter anyhow since I will be accused of being a CCP shill 50c poster anyway.

Apologies, I didn't mean to offend, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. Can you help me understand what makes the reports on the Chinese government's detention of Muslims propaganda rather than news?