Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE • Hacker News Board

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#251

Post by 781 » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

bitL wrote: post #147

dtech wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against…

> Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access AFAIK this was tit-for-tat: HU & PL closed/sold-off their industry in favor of WEU in exchange for subsidies. Removing these subsidies for any reason would violate the main economic agreement between them and EU. Mind you, there is no significant locally grown industry in th…

Russia killed whatever plan the EU had for Ukraine. There is no way EU let's in a state where russian troops operate.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#252

Post by Redoubts » Sat, May 04, 2019, 5:06 PM UTC

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #135

fmhul wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit disagrees. And they weren't using 3, which is even slower.

Pretty sure Python 3 has had better performance since 3.5 or so?

I still see benchmarks from bilingual projects which show py2 being faster, such as http://falconframework.org/#sectionBenchmarks

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#253

Post by lkrubner » Sat, May 04, 2019, 5:11 PM UTC

dtech wrote: post #32

mjw1007 wrote: post #10

« Oracle already started a blocking politics at the Eclipse Foundation’s board, where Oracle has a seat, and where unanimous decisions are needed. Oracle now has the power, and apparently will use that power, to block the foundation’s future. It demonstrated that power already in a board meeting, where they had the sole vote against an otherwise unaimous move. » I hope other organisations with a director from Oracle…

For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against…

The irony is that Poland was once the #1 or #2 power in Europe, but they were destroyed by unanimous voting. Want to raise taxes to build an army to repel foreign invasion? Everyone agrees, except that one person too far from Russia to care, and the taxes get vetoed, so Russia wins, thus Poland was destroyed. The Poles know how dangerous unanimity is.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#254

Post by sonnyblarney » Sat, May 04, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

dtech wrote: post #52

_lbaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment…

Too little too late, and I highly doubt that (5-year-old) Valhalla will deliver even one of the promised features (value types) in the next 3 years. Remember that the original plan was to have all Valhalla features in Java 10. Java/JVM was in the ideal position to dominate the software world for the whole 21th century 15 years ago. Instead they did an IE6 and stagnated for so long that their competitors became plain…

"LLVM and webassembly are eating JVM's cake,"

> webassembly is not eating any cake.

And C++ is still around, and one of the top choices, despite 25 years of other languages chipping away at it.

Java is very mature, it doesn't need to evolve a whole lot - and most everything you need is there.

Oracle is definitely a risk to this, but I don't see TS/JS/Node taking over.

Kotlin is a strategic choice by Google due to Oracle woes, otherwise it would be a very rare language: consider that it really hasn't made a big roar outside of Android, i.e. it's not really anywhere on server side.

Java isn't going anywhere for a while yet.

There will need to be some kind of tectonic shift for this to happen.

If Google or AWS for example fully embrace some new thing, that might do it - but I don't see what the candidate is.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#255

Post by royjacobs » Sat, May 04, 2019, 5:23 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #242

pjmlp wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has such a wonderful cross-platform GUI.

There are no “wonderful” cross platform GUIs and that been true for over two decades.

I assume you're trolling at this point but if that's not the case then the Qt company would like a word with you.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#256

Post by rtempaccount1 » Sat, May 04, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #51

bborud wrote: post #41

Oracle makes Java a risk factor in all projects. I stopped approving new Java projects in my team 2 years ago after we switched to Go. This wasn’t a decision we took lightly and it took almost a decade for me to be comfortable with leaving Java behind. But it is the right thing to do. Oracle is not trustworthy.

Strange attitude to take when you can just target OpenJDK and then it is completely irrelevant what Oracle does or does not do. The fact is that every single one of the largest companies has some Java or Scala code within their core platform. And none of them have ever raised Oracle as a risk.

As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, Oracle employs a lot of/most of the developers who work on the OpenJDK.

So Oracle's attitude to OpenJDK and the possibility that it cuts back on development is a likely factor for people considering the platform.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#257

Post by jacques_chester » Sat, May 04, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

sheeshkebab wrote: post #167

If I understand correctly, OpenJDK is licensed under GPL with classpath exception - and the only thing that is preventing openjdk from being unusable in any commercial settings is a few lines of legalese, controlled by Oracle, on handful of source files in various packages. If Oracle removes that classpath exception legalese in some upcoming jdk version from these source files (which they are fully in control of), op…

The JDK would promptly be forked from the last-covered commit, presumably by a coalition of Amazon, Azul, IBM, Red Hat, SAP, Google, Microsoft (amazing times we live in) and Pivotal amongst others.

What enterprise customers want is certainty. Given the choice between "Java by Oracle" and "Basically still Java by Literally Every Other Enterprise Software Vendor", they will pick the latter in a heartbeat.

It would be chaotic and disruptive, but once the dust settled Oracle would (again) be holding the fizzle instead of the bang. That's how we got Jenkins out of Hudson, which has an unrivalled penetration of enterprise.

Disclosure: I work for Pivotal, we sponsor Spring and have a deep interest in the evolution of the OpenJDK. This is of course personal speculation.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#258

Post by pjmlp » Sat, May 04, 2019, 5:33 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #245

pjmlp wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what Microsoft wants, I spend most of my time as .NET dev. That doesn't change the fact that many libs don't run on .NET Core, or outside Windows for that matter, specially the ones that depend on C++/CLI.

So instead of tying your horse to one dead end platform - .Net Framework - you’re okay with tying your horse to two? It was clear that C++/CLI was a dead end a decade ago. When Microsoft mentions thier “strategies” for various .Net languages, you notice which one is missing? https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/the-net-language-strat... I’m very much a .Net fan but it makes about as much since as a developer to tie…

I tie my horses to the platforms that customers pay for, instead of religious rants.

I even use C, if that is what customers want to have done for them.

Those Azure Linux VMs happen to run on Hyper-V hypervisors.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#259

Post by cheerlessbog » Sat, May 04, 2019, 5:34 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #235

scarface74 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world is moving on from .Net Framework - including Microsoft. .Net Framework is definitely the new COBOL. It’s basically in maintenance mode. Any company would be crazy to start a new greenfield project using .Net Framework and should have some type of plan to move to Core. https://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2018/10/10/net-key... The presenters said it will still be released with Windows, as it's a compone…

I know what Microsoft wants, I spend most of my time as .NET dev. That doesn't change the fact that many libs don't run on .NET Core, or outside Windows for that matter, specially the ones that depend on C++/CLI.

C++/CLI is in.NET Core 3.0.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#260

Post by pjmlp » Sat, May 04, 2019, 5:34 PM UTC

cheerlessbog wrote: post #259

pjmlp wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what Microsoft wants, I spend most of my time as .NET dev. That doesn't change the fact that many libs don't run on .NET Core, or outside Windows for that matter, specially the ones that depend on C++/CLI.

C++/CLI is in.NET Core 3.0.

Only for Windows.