500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app • Hacker News Board

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#91

Post by microcolonel » Sat, May 04, 2019, 3:31 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #76

microcolonel wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really sure what you could gain from that. Language is not the stuffy study of hard and fast rules, but a constant negotiation between what the listener is capable of understanding, and what the speaker will compose. In the same way that unexamined Ebonics is not just crappy English, unexamined Standard American English is not just crappy English. Whether you're aware of the underlying rules or not, you're fo…

> I'm not really sure what you could gain from that. Are you saying that as someone that has a good understanding of English grammar? I was thinking that in the same way have a better knowledge of basic physics or chemistry can help me cook or fix my car, better knowledge of my language could help me understand and be understood. For example, in one of my previous jobs I received a critique saying I should stop using…

> Are you saying that as someone that has a good understanding of English grammar?

I have a very strong working understanding of English grammar, but I couldn't recall many of the concepts concepts by name. I think I'm roughly at the same place as you on that matter.

> I should stop using the passive voice when I write.

That is a great idea. For people who have trouble sticking to habits, I always suggest using a tool like http://hemingwayapp.com/

Tools like this give you practice recognizing patterns you don't want to see in your writing. People I've suggested it to have found it very useful.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#92

Post by wallflower » Sat, May 04, 2019, 3:32 PM UTC

zeta0134 wrote: post #65

cosarara wrote: post #5

The worst part of Duolingo is how boring it is to level up a skill to 5 when you already understand the topics taught. When learning German or Italian and testing out of the earlier levels, the exercise you get most of the time is just "sort these English words to translate the sentence". You can get it right all the time just by looking for a grammatically correct sentence with the most superficial of understanding.…

I'm going through Duolingo to actually learn Spanish for the first time, and I definitely agree that the direct approach for leveling up a lesson to level 5 is... tedious at best. Instead I'm taking a different approach. I'm getting each skill to level 2, which is the point right before lessons start asking you to type answers and take away the word bubbles. That gets me basic familiarity, and I move through the cour…

> For example, "a la" (roughly "to the") condenses to "al" in Spanish

“a el” condenses to “al”.

You might want to get a book on Spanish grammar to cross-check when you encounter new rules.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#93

Post by chungleong » Sat, May 04, 2019, 3:38 PM UTC

msvan wrote: post #85

chungleong wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best way to learn a language is spending a good size chunk of money. People are loss adverse. The need to extract value from the sunk cost is a powerful motivator. That's why in-person classes tend to be more effective than books. A book is always going to be there. Missing a class on the other hand is money down the drain.

I don't think this is true. I've spent lots of money on "necessary equipment" for my hobbies, and that hasn't made me commit more time to them. People buy expensive running shoes because they see themselves as being runners, and then they never put them on.

Running shoes don't integrate from lack of use. A membership at a health club, on the other hand, goes to waste if you don't use it.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#94

Post by firefoxd » Sat, May 04, 2019, 3:43 PM UTC

Duolingo is s fun mobile game that happens to have words in different languages. It uses all modern gamification and addiction technics to keep you hooked.

However, the very act of using the app means you are willing to learn a new language. As a consequence, you will learn more about those languages through other external factors, like people or paid programs.

If Duolingo's only purpose is to keep you interested into learning long enough to learn languages externally, then I guess that's not too bad either.

I wrote about my own experience of 383 days here: https://idiallo.com/blog/no-spanish-with-duo

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#95

Post by blacksqr » Sat, May 04, 2019, 3:48 PM UTC

cosarara wrote: post #5

The worst part of Duolingo is how boring it is to level up a skill to 5 when you already understand the topics taught. When learning German or Italian and testing out of the earlier levels, the exercise you get most of the time is just "sort these English words to translate the sentence". You can get it right all the time just by looking for a grammatically correct sentence with the most superficial of understanding.…

>the app has been too optimized for user engagement instead of efficient learning

Yes. As an ad-supported app, the developers overwhelming motivation is to get users to take the next lesson, rather than to progress them toward mastery. The app seems designed to stimulate every reward center in the brain toward that end, the mechanisms for which usually ending up getting in the way of accessing the lesson content efficiently.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#96

Post by zeta0134 » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:00 PM UTC

wallflower wrote: post #92

zeta0134 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going through Duolingo to actually learn Spanish for the first time, and I definitely agree that the direct approach for leveling up a lesson to level 5 is... tedious at best. Instead I'm taking a different approach. I'm getting each skill to level 2, which is the point right before lessons start asking you to type answers and take away the word bubbles. That gets me basic familiarity, and I move through the cour…

> For example, "a la" (roughly "to the") condenses to "al" in Spanish “a el” condenses to “al”. You might want to get a book on Spanish grammar to cross-check when you encounter new rules.

Ha, I would mess up the example. :P You're completely right of course. I guess I assumed it applied to both genders, but I'm still picking up the gender of a lot of the words; that's not terribly intuitive.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#97

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:00 PM UTC

chungleong wrote: post #61

msvan wrote: post #7

The best way to learn a language is to need to learn it. If you come in contact with a foreign language daily, it becomes much easier to both practice and motivate yourself to continue to practice. As someone who has spent thousands of hours learning a foreign language, I've come to the conclusion that I will never do it again unless I have a proper reason for it. Might seem obvious, but it's worth pointing out.

The best way to learn a language is spending a good size chunk of money. People are loss adverse. The need to extract value from the sunk cost is a powerful motivator. That's why in-person classes tend to be more effective than books. A book is always going to be there. Missing a class on the other hand is money down the drain.

[deleted]

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#98

Post by kostarelo » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:16 PM UTC

I've used Duolingo for several months (a year ago) to learn Spanish and when I visited Barcelona for the first time I was impressed by how I was able to put some every day phrases in use, things like "How are you? Can I have a coffee?" etc..

The thing I don't like about Duolingo is its curriculum and the way they structure their lessons. I found it very difficult to go from the early beginner stage to the more advanced phrases and vocabulary due to Duolingo trying to teach me phrases early on that made no sense, like the famous "The lion eats monkeys"[1].

A month ago I started using busuu[2] and I am loving it. They have a great structure, they are explaining it very well and I am able to understand fairly quickly[3]. Even better, they have setup a network where users can send exercises to other members (native speakers of the language you are trying to speak) and they will correct and rate them. The network is very active, as soon as I submit my exercise, a couple of minutes later someone will have corrected it. (Premium plan though, I made a 3 months plan, hopefully it will be enough to get me on track).

I would suggest everyone to give busuu a try.

[1]: https://em.wattpad.com/e5f4065cb909961cd40e0ff3c277e684f9b28... [2]: https://busuu.com [3]: https://imgur.com/a/3PrxDBH

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#99

Post by dominotw » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:17 PM UTC

wallflower wrote: post #75

dominotw wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hey helps that my wife is Mexican :D but I've been lazy learning spanish all these years. I just need a full immersion where i can enjoy the full payoff.

I know you are qualifying your efforts with the weasel word “lazy”, and I hate to break it to you but there is no magic bullet to learning a language after early childhood. (Invested time x Motivation) ÷ Inhibition = Result https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kató_Lomb As the Spanish saying goes: los idiomas se aprenden en la cuna o en la cama ("languages are learned either in the cradle or in bed") One of my acquaintanc…

haha yea definitely. we've talked about this for a while time to do it.

Re: 500 days of Duolingo: What you can and can’t learn from a language app

#100

Post by criddell » Sat, May 04, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #91

criddell wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not really sure what you could gain from that. Are you saying that as someone that has a good understanding of English grammar? I was thinking that in the same way have a better knowledge of basic physics or chemistry can help me cook or fix my car, better knowledge of my language could help me understand and be understood. For example, in one of my previous jobs I received a critique saying I should stop using…

> Are you saying that as someone that has a good understanding of English grammar? I have a very strong working understanding of English grammar, but I couldn't recall many of the concepts concepts by name. I think I'm roughly at the same place as you on that matter. > I should stop using the passive voice when I write. That is a great idea. For people who have trouble sticking to habits, I always suggest using a too…

> hemingwayapp.com

That's pretty neat. Thanks for the link.

I ran my previous comment through it and my comment requires an 8th grade reading level and was scored as good.

My paragraph that starts "I was thinking" is marked as very hard to read. My "For example" sentence is hard to read. I used one adverb (frankly), and used the passive voice once (be understood). I'm not sure I see the problem with be understood.