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A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

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Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#311
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh guy. Come on man. You don't negotiate with terrorists. Maybe I should just ask you to get a better idea of how you're thinking about this whole thing, do you think we should have paid the British?

> You don't negotiate with terrorists. So you think the slaveowners were terrorists? You think the British in Colonial times were terrorists? On what basis? > do you think we should have paid the British? I answered this in another part of this subthread: yes, if the British would have accepted payment in exchange for our independence, and we could have afforded the payment, we should have paid them.

>On what basis?...

Uh... on the basis of them beating, torturing and even killing slaves maybe? Or again, are we not counting any terrorism against slaves?

I mean, what would you call slavery but terrorism? Violence to achieve and maintain a political objective. What is war but terrorism really? When you're dealing with a terrorist, you use their tactics and prove to them you're willing to go further.

But coming to the central point, I think it's clear we just disagree fundamentally about when it's appropriate to use treasury to pay settlements. Paying terrorists or bullies is completely inappropriate. Paying someone you may have wronged inadvertently, or paying for land, is more appropriate. So paying, say, France for Louisiana, or Russia for Alaska, is entirely appropriate. It's just making an offer for a piece of land that's not ours. We don't own it. We don't farm it. We weren't the people making that land valuable. But we wanted to move there so we could do so. An offer of purchase is appropriate under those circumstances.

But paying southerners to free slaves, is tantamount to paying a kidnapper to release their hostages. If you're smart, you just don't do that. The only thing it does is embolden other kidnappers.

And paying someone for land you live on, you farm, and you make valuable, but they take the profit off of it with no input from you at all? Yeah, that's not even something you should consider doing. Just as you shouldn't pay mafia "protection" fees. It's just asking for more trouble down the line.

But you and I just think differently about these things. No worries. I just firmly believe if you tried to do things your way, you would find in very short order that the world is not unicorns and rainbows. There are significant dangers to doing business with bad actors.

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in UK, I was informed of my upcoming jury duty about 4 months or more before the actual service.

We have similar for jury pool service (I have one in my mail pile for about 10 weeks of notice), but is your case assigned and known to you and the parties to the case? I only know the date and court (we also call the evening before to see if we even need to show up and even if we do have to show up, there's no guarantee that you'll get a case as they have to have a slight surplus rather than slight deficit of potent…

Ah, that's true. The selection of jurors for a particular trial was only on the day itself. The process sounds similar. We had to turn up at court for two weeks, and would get assigned a trial whenever you were free from the previous one, if it was a short one. The unlucky few who land a major trial have to sit it out to the end of course.

Maybe the sanctions that successfully keep jurors from telling the press about trials 99% of the time could work for this too. Maybe it would have to be cleverer somehow.

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#313
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all voting systems in use today will allow a plurality of political actors, and hence most democracies have more than two parties represented in parliament. That is, except "first past the post" which is the system in the UK and US. It inevitably and systemically always devolves into a de facto two-party system. I'm sure you can see how this is a problem? Granted, quadratic voting specifically was probably not…

> That is, except "first past the post" which is the system in the UK and US. ... I'm sure you can see how this is a problem? The two longest lasting, largest, most successful democracies of all time - I don't see the problem. The arguments against winner-take-all are mathematically maximizing a collective total happiness score for single elections. But governments are run by people, not math, and I've yet to see any…

Remove "world" from "world wars" and it looks totally different.

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#314
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the problem with that, because it would require me to convince you to vote for Y although you want X. And in addition, seeing as this is an anonymous (I'm assuming) vote, then I could lie to you and vote my way (to get more votes for Y), but then if everyone will do it, the colluding wouldn't work, so we need to be able to trust each other and work together, which is exactly what we in the end, for people…

> I don't see the problem with that, because it would require me to convince you to vote for Y although you want X. X and Y need not be alternatives for the same problem, X might be about financial deregulation and Y about privacy deregulation.

Sounds like how party coalitions work in the US.

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#316
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all voting systems in use today will allow a plurality of political actors, and hence most democracies have more than two parties represented in parliament. That is, except "first past the post" which is the system in the UK and US. It inevitably and systemically always devolves into a de facto two-party system. I'm sure you can see how this is a problem? Granted, quadratic voting specifically was probably not…

> That is, except "first past the post" which is the system in the UK and US. ... I'm sure you can see how this is a problem? The two longest lasting, largest, most successful democracies of all time - I don't see the problem. The arguments against winner-take-all are mathematically maximizing a collective total happiness score for single elections. But governments are run by people, not math, and I've yet to see any…

"The two longest lasting, largest, most successful democracies of all time - I don't see the problem."

They both have problems with large minorities of voters not being represented in their respective parliaments.

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#317

I always hate the framing as “polarized”. There’s tons of things Democrats and Republicans agree on. Military spending goes up every year. Save for Dodd-Frank, deregulation has been common across presidencies for 30 years along with corporate tax cuts... The establishment gets things done, they really do, it’s just not things that help everyday people. I’m not sure how this would help that.

And many things which does not get done, no matter whether Republicans or Democrats are in power, like reform of the Prison System.

The U.S. constitution and system of government were designed to make it difficult to effect change. IMO, the founding fathers overshot the mark by a bit.

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more that politics become local the more this all goes away. States need to be at the foreront again

I'd go further and argue that city-states make the most sense in today's world, with a federal government to arbitrate resources and defense. US state boundaries are quite arbitrary with respect to how actual communities are organized on the map.

But you have an option to move to a new state that fits your beliefs. Much harder to do when it is a Federal system with a single law for all thr lands.

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#320
post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more that politics become local the more this all goes away. States need to be at the foreront again

There are plenty of examples of more local politics leading to worse outcomes. For example: balkanized cities zoning for too many offices and not enough housing, and jurisdictions racing to the bottom of tax policy to entice business.

There are plenty of examples where Federal law created worse outcomes in a particular locality, but is much harder to change the law because its Federal.
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