Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE • Hacker News Board

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#141

Post by bluecalm » Sat, May 04, 2019, 12:53 PM UTC

dtech wrote: post #32

mjw1007 wrote: post #10

« Oracle already started a blocking politics at the Eclipse Foundation’s board, where Oracle has a seat, and where unanimous decisions are needed. Oracle now has the power, and apparently will use that power, to block the foundation’s future. It demonstrated that power already in a board meeting, where they had the sole vote against an otherwise unaimous move. » I hope other organisations with a director from Oracle…

For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against…

Well if they believe similar things they vote accordingly. It's not a loophole, just two governments having similar views about those issues. It's for the better as well, if you allowed sanctions for refusing immigration policy you would end up with huge backlash and likely several countries exiting EU.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#142

Post by lars_francke » Sat, May 04, 2019, 12:57 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #104

lars_francke wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please remember that such viewpoints tend to be very subjective and depend a lot on your environment. Where I am (geographically, company wise and ecosystem) Java and the Java ecosystem are very much thriving.

I wouldn't say that for Java EE.

That's true for me as well. There are a few select components from EE that I see but other than that it's of no relevance for me either.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#143

Post by StevePerkins » Sat, May 04, 2019, 12:57 PM UTC

aphexairlines wrote: post #139

StevePerkins wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> webassembly [is] eating JVM's cake It's hard for me to take all the "Java is dying" threads seriously when they don't even seem to understand where Java plays. Webassembly ? Really? That's a client-side tech, and 99.999% of Java devs ceded the browser battleground pre-9/11. Java's bread and butter is EAI, ETL, and server-side business application development. Particularly with pieces requiring heavily distributed d…

You're right that Java is entrenched in a lot of the enterprise space, but I think you're being quick to dismiss entrants that have gained steam in the last few years. For example, Go is becoming the default in Kubernetes applications. It's eating tech companies that became large in the last few years like Lyft and Uber. It'll spread to other large tech companies like Amazon or IBM with ease. It will possibly get pic…

Seriously, people. K8s is a container orchestration system. Yes, it's written in Go, like Docker itself. DevOps tooling is a niche area where Go has been very successful. But k8s runs whatever you put into your Docker containers.

I've seen no indication of it changing which languages people choose to containerize (Node containers probably being way more common than Go ones). If anything, easy containerization negates one of Go's strongest selling points (i.e. standalone executables with no need for a runtime environment).

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#144

Post by raverbashing » Sat, May 04, 2019, 1:02 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #51

bborud wrote: post #41

Oracle makes Java a risk factor in all projects. I stopped approving new Java projects in my team 2 years ago after we switched to Go. This wasn’t a decision we took lightly and it took almost a decade for me to be comfortable with leaving Java behind. But it is the right thing to do. Oracle is not trustworthy.

Strange attitude to take when you can just target OpenJDK and then it is completely irrelevant what Oracle does or does not do. The fact is that every single one of the largest companies has some Java or Scala code within their core platform. And none of them have ever raised Oracle as a risk.

> when you can just target OpenJDK and then it is completely irrelevant what Oracle does or does not do

Yeah, Google thought the same

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#145

Post by dwaite » Sat, May 04, 2019, 1:03 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #57

acqq wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying So how is this "JVM world" escaping the grip of Oracle? E.g. graalvm is directly Oracle's, or am I missing something? Specifically, what is preventing any of the Java-related things people use now (including those that you mention) to end like the OP is describing? Asking as somebody outside of that world, but interested "how much it's worth consi…

OpenJDK is an open distribution and preinstalled on all major operating systems and is now the standard JVM for most developers. We even have open distributions of it e.g. Amazon Coretto. GraalVM isn't even at version 1.0 so nothing at all to worry about.

> OpenJDK is an open distribution and preinstalled on all major operating systems

My understanding is that it is preinstalled on chrome os and android, but is not preinstalled for any major linux distribution, is a separate third-party download for windows and Mac, and is unavailable for iOS.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#146

Post by based2 » Sat, May 04, 2019, 1:03 PM UTC

smadge wrote: post #11

Illniyar wrote: post #2

Well, mmm, good riddance? I suppose this will cause a lot of hardships to a lot of people who need to maintain JavaEE, but the fact that Java EE is no more is nothing but good. It is a nightmare case of overengineering.

I never used a flow blown Java EE web application server, but the various APIs I used like JDBC, JAX-RS, and JPA were generally well thought out and pleasant enough to work with. It would be a shame if these interfaces/specifications became proprietary.

These specs are reuse in MicroProfile: https://wiki.eclipse.org/MicroProfile/Implementation

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#147

Post by bitL » Sat, May 04, 2019, 1:05 PM UTC

dtech wrote: post #32

mjw1007 wrote: post #10

« Oracle already started a blocking politics at the Eclipse Foundation’s board, where Oracle has a seat, and where unanimous decisions are needed. Oracle now has the power, and apparently will use that power, to block the foundation’s future. It demonstrated that power already in a board meeting, where they had the sole vote against an otherwise unaimous move. » I hope other organisations with a director from Oracle…

For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against…

> Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access

AFAIK this was tit-for-tat: HU & PL closed/sold-off their industry in favor of WEU in exchange for subsidies. Removing these subsidies for any reason would violate the main economic agreement between them and EU. Mind you, there is no significant locally grown industry in those countries anymore (outside of a few state-owned industries), WEU profited from this enormously, especially Germany. As economic potential of this arrangement has been exhausted after 25 years already, incorporating UA is the next move to give EU (primarily DE/FR/NL) some nice economy boost for the next 10 years. EU is essentially playing Sim City.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#148

Post by StevePerkins » Sat, May 04, 2019, 1:06 PM UTC

dtech wrote: post #140

StevePerkins wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> webassembly [is] eating JVM's cake It's hard for me to take all the "Java is dying" threads seriously when they don't even seem to understand where Java plays. Webassembly ? Really? That's a client-side tech, and 99.999% of Java devs ceded the browser battleground pre-9/11. Java's bread and butter is EAI, ETL, and server-side business application development. Particularly with pieces requiring heavily distributed d…

I said LLVM and webassembly. LLVM has replaced JVM as a programming language target bytecode in the last 10 years (except Kotlin no new JVM language). JVM has lost web to JS 20-15 years ago, and Webassembly is now taking shape as proper web bytecode. I do not know what will be the most dominant language + bytecode in 25 years, but I would bet $10000 that it isn't Java and JVM.

> except Kotlin no new JVM language

Java's never going to be on the bleeding-edge of trendiness (thank goodness). But there have been fewer JVM-targeting alternative languages over the past decade, because Java itself started leaning in a functional direction. It became "good enough" to negate the purpose for most of them.

At any rate, counting compile targets for hobbyist toy languages is barely one step beyond measuring GitHub stars.

> I do not know what will be the most dominant language + bytecode in 25 years

In 25 years, I'll be long gone and you can have it. By then, the industry will be pushing to automate most programming jobs out of existence altogether, and you can be the old guard arguing against that.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#149

Post by dwaite » Sat, May 04, 2019, 1:07 PM UTC

cmiles74 wrote: post #108

votepaunchy wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and iOS? And I’ve only done upgrades, but I don’t believe any JVM is preinstalled on MacOS.

Last time I used MacOS, it prompted me to install Java and then it did the install. I was in the Terminal, I am not sure what the interaction would look like if I had double-clicked a JAR file. I believe Apple donated their customizations (Swing L&F, launcher code, etc.) to OpenJDK.

This is Apple's old build of Java 6, and is currently downloaded as needed for backward compatibility. Anything newer than that the third party is expected to bundle into their application.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#150

Post by rafaelturk » Sat, May 04, 2019, 1:10 PM UTC

We all love Java, however we need to decouple the Language from the ecosystem that the new owner of Java, Oracle, wants to enforce upon customers.

Oracle made a clear business decision and will go forward squeeze every single dollar they possible can thru legal means, not from innovation or services.