Sad as Hell • Hacker News Board

Re: Sad as Hell

#41

Post by michael_dorfman » Wed, Dec 08, 2010, 8:43 AM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #40

michael_dorfman wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're drifting from the topic at hand, but None of the most successful women I know really care or complain about things like he/she in the English language misses the point completely. The effect of sexist language on successful women is not the source of people's concern. Rather, it is the (subtle) effect on women who are not yet successful, and the reinforcing effect on men. Casual minor acts of racism probably ha…

> We're drifting from the topic at hand, but None of the most successful women I know really care or complain about things like he/she in the English language misses the point completely. No, I understood your point. I think you missed mine though - my point is that you have a limited amount of time each day to direct your attention. If you want to be more successful, or want women to be more successful, then focusin…

If you want to be more successful, or want women to be more successful, then focusing on he/she pronouns is a very bad use of your time.

I respectfully disagree. I think that language matters, and I am concerned about the influence of language on my four daughters (aged 3 to 13). I'm not saying that this is the most important issue, of course-- but I also don't think that sexist language should get a free pass in the name of some higher efficiency.

Learning more personal finance, investing, and negotiation will massively help anyone's career success, including women. Having everyone switch to singular they will not make so big of a difference.

It's not just about career success.

Comparing the historical use of "he" in English for a singular pronoun to racism smacks of really missing the point though - the point is, pronoun usage is going to have a trivial impact, if any, on people's successes.

Again, I beg to differ. Attitudes like racism and sexism are maintained though a variety of means, including casual acts that have largely symbolic value. If you reject the parallel to race, how about we draw an alternative parallel to sexual orientation? I know that in my lifetime, there have been major shifts in both the discourse around homosexuality and the rights gay people have won. I firmly believe the two are related, and that using "gay" as a perjorative has a (subtle, but real) damaging effect on society. Similarly, pretending that "he" is gender neutral supports unconscious assumptions that do women no favors.

The historical use of "he" to refer to both genders should, in my opinion, be relegated to history.

Re: Sad as Hell

#42

Post by arethuza » Wed, Dec 08, 2010, 9:05 AM UTC

Semiapies wrote: post #8

bobf wrote: post #5

Days seem over before they even begin, and I have nothing to show for myself other than the anxious feeling that I now know just enough to engage in conversations I don’t care about. To me, this was the most striking sentence in the article. It seems to be something that has increased from the time pop culture began to the present. Each of us probably hears more about Justin Bieber than we would ever truly care to, f…

This is entirely voluntary. For instance, I know that Bieber exists, and I can probably count on my fingers how many times I've seen pictures of him. I found the one or two songs of his I've heard innocuous and utterly forgettable - I probably couldn't identify him if I heard those very same songs again. I'm not even aware precisely why he's the go-to example of annoying celebrity, lately. I'm not utterly isolated fr…

The only reason I know Bieber exists is the South Park episode where Cartman gets Cthulhu to kill him.

Re: Sad as Hell

#43

Post by gjm11 » Wed, Dec 08, 2010, 10:30 AM UTC

bobf wrote: post #9

Semiapies wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is entirely voluntary. For instance, I know that Bieber exists, and I can probably count on my fingers how many times I've seen pictures of him. I found the one or two songs of his I've heard innocuous and utterly forgettable - I probably couldn't identify him if I heard those very same songs again. I'm not even aware precisely why he's the go-to example of annoying celebrity, lately. I'm not utterly isolated fr…

And how many times would you care to have seen pictures of him, or heard anything about him? Probably zero. So it isn't exactly entirely voluntary, right?

I have, to the best of my knowledge, never either seen or heard Justin Bieber. I have not made a conscious effort to avoid his face or his music; I just don't consume a lot of mass media.

So it seems voluntary enough.

Re: Sad as Hell

#44

Post by roel_v » Wed, Dec 08, 2010, 10:40 AM UTC

bouncingsoul wrote: post #38

lionhearted wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Norms will only keep improving if people keep complaining. This may be controversial or offensive, but it's the truth so I'll take the heat for saying it: None of the most successful women I know really care or complain about things like he/she in the English language. For the most successful women I know - I'm thinking of an investment banker, lawyer, and chief editor of a magazine in particular - the idea of caus…

You're saying when people don't care about a particular issue they just follow the accepted norm and get on with their lives. And you applaud that. But I don't see how that's incompatible with others who do care making an attempt to improve that accepted norm.

(Warning: sharp tone ahead, not so much at you, mostly at the people who felt the need to high jack this thread with their fundamentalist nonsense).

Because the people who 'do care' as you put it, try to 'improve' by imposing a cost on others, namely by polluting every discussion to the point where the actual points get snowed under and this he/she non-issue takes over as the main focus (case in point: this discussion).

It's like Jehova's witnesses or other nutcase religious people: 'oh we're not harming anyone!' - not putting a gun to my head, no, but still ringing my door bell, proposing legislation based around your idiotic beliefs, etc. Get lost with your 'trying to save my soul' and if you really can't contain your beliefs and have to somehow involve others, at least pick people who have expressed an interest (i.e., post on alt.philosophy.feminism or whatever) instead of always imposing your 'debate' on everybody.

Re: Sad as Hell

#45

Post by roel_v » Wed, Dec 08, 2010, 10:59 AM UTC

bobf wrote: post #9

Semiapies wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is entirely voluntary. For instance, I know that Bieber exists, and I can probably count on my fingers how many times I've seen pictures of him. I found the one or two songs of his I've heard innocuous and utterly forgettable - I probably couldn't identify him if I heard those very same songs again. I'm not even aware precisely why he's the go-to example of annoying celebrity, lately. I'm not utterly isolated fr…

And how many times would you care to have seen pictures of him, or heard anything about him? Probably zero. So it isn't exactly entirely voluntary, right?

How many times would I care to read about yet another 'Facebook is evil!' 'Down with The Man!' 'We're sheep who are being lived by Big Corp' idiotic 'privacy' drivel? None, and yet they show up quite regularly here. I just accept that that's the price to pay to, you know, participating in a broader community where not everybodies ideas and interests are going to 100% overlap with mine, and I skip those articles. Or are you suggesting that any time you run across something that you do not want or are not interested in is somehow a symptom of a general decline in control of our lives, caused by technology?

Re: Sad as Hell

#46

Post by roel_v » Wed, Dec 08, 2010, 11:08 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #28

bobf wrote: post #5

Days seem over before they even begin, and I have nothing to show for myself other than the anxious feeling that I now know just enough to engage in conversations I don’t care about. To me, this was the most striking sentence in the article. It seems to be something that has increased from the time pop culture began to the present. Each of us probably hears more about Justin Bieber than we would ever truly care to, f…

Justin who ?

I like (or rather, dislike, but find strange enjoyment in spotting yet another instance) how ignorance of popular culture is a status symbol in some circles, to be flashed as often as possible. It's exactly what is so greatly parodied in http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-constantly-mention..., down to the picture with the goatee of the typical person exhibiting this behavior.

Justin Bieber, just so you know, is a Canadian teenage singer who has over the last few year build a large mass of rather devoted fans. He makes very 'poppy' music ('mierzoet' as we'd say in Dutch, I'm not aware of an English term capturing the essence of that word) and is therefore widely reviled by those who consider their own musical interests more refined or otherwise better.

It's all described on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Bieber, and no it's not just a US thing (although he has been popular there for longer, but he's also well known here in Europe, including here in the Netherlands; see http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Bieber ).

Re: Sad as Hell

#47

Post by ZeroGravitas » Wed, Dec 08, 2010, 11:37 AM UTC

michael_dorfman wrote: post #37

lionhearted wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Norms will only keep improving if people keep complaining. This may be controversial or offensive, but it's the truth so I'll take the heat for saying it: None of the most successful women I know really care or complain about things like he/she in the English language. For the most successful women I know - I'm thinking of an investment banker, lawyer, and chief editor of a magazine in particular - the idea of caus…

We're drifting from the topic at hand, but None of the most successful women I know really care or complain about things like he/she in the English language misses the point completely. The effect of sexist language on successful women is not the source of people's concern. Rather, it is the (subtle) effect on women who are not yet successful, and the reinforcing effect on men. Casual minor acts of racism probably ha…

The racism/sexism analogy in the context of language reminded me of this:

A Person Paper on Purity in Language by William Satire (alias Douglas R. Hofstadter)

http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html

Incredibly well crafted satire.

"Most of the clamor,as you certainly know by now, revolves around the age-old usage of the noun "white" and words built from it, such as chairwhite, mailwhite, repairwhite, clergywhite, middlewhite, Frenchwhite, forewhite, whitepower, whiteslaughter, oneupuwhiteship, straw white, whitehandle, and so on. The negrists claim that using the word "white," either on its own or as a component, to talk about all the members of the human species is somehow degrading to blacks and reinforces racism. Therefore the libbers propose that we substitute "person" everywhere where "white" now occurs. Sensitive speakers of our secretary tongue of course find this preposterous. There is great beauty to a phrase such as "All whites are created equal." Our forebosses who framed the Declaration of Independence well understood the poetry of our language. Think how ugly it would be to say "All persons are created equal," or "All whites and blacks are created equal." Besides, as any schoolwhitey can tell you, such phrases are redundant. In most contexts, it is self-evident when "white" is being used in an inclusive sense, in which case it subsumes members of the darker race just as much as fairskins."

Re: Sad as Hell

#48

Post by duck » Wed, Dec 08, 2010, 12:12 PM UTC

lionhearted wrote: post #30

Semiapies wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is entirely voluntary. For instance, I know that Bieber exists, and I can probably count on my fingers how many times I've seen pictures of him. I found the one or two songs of his I've heard innocuous and utterly forgettable - I probably couldn't identify him if I heard those very same songs again. I'm not even aware precisely why he's the go-to example of annoying celebrity, lately. I'm not utterly isolated fr…

> This is entirely voluntary. Indeed, and I've pretty much done it. But it takes effort. You need credible replacements for the mindless time, and then you need to actively push yourself towards the new stuff as opposed to the old stuff. The credible replacements is everything. If you commute by car, you need either: -Some audiotapes/audiobooks/podcasts -Someone to carpool with -Some way of not driving any more (car…

What else is there to do while driving?

How about just drive? I hardly turn on the radio when I am driving by myself and find it a great time to think about things I am working on.

Re: Sad as Hell

#49

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 08, 2010, 12:26 PM UTC

neilk wrote: post #35

I constantly see my peers lamenting how technology has "taken" their time and space for reflection away and have no idea what they're talking about. It may be uncool to admit but I have no trouble at all keeping my inbox to zero unread items. And I do have a social life -- less active than many, but more active than a lot of people. I even read books, actual physical things made of paper, in my spare time. How do I d…

[deleted]

Re: Sad as Hell

#50

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Dec 08, 2010, 12:31 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #46

jacquesm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Justin who ?

I like (or rather, dislike, but find strange enjoyment in spotting yet another instance) how ignorance of popular culture is a status symbol in some circles, to be flashed as often as possible. It's exactly what is so greatly parodied in http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-constantly-mention... , down to the picture with the goatee of the typical person exhibiting this behavior. Justin Bieber, just so you know,…

I think you're reading a bit too much into two words.