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A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

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291–300 of 343 posts

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#291

The basic form of quadratic voting, with actual money, also makes trying to protect yourself and your rights against hostile voting blocks expensive. Are you black? Muslim? Transgender? The majority votes to screw you over in some way, and you spend to vote harder against them and so manage to stop them. And then you've spent quite a bit of money, which gets redistributed to all voters (ie, everyone in your group see…

Isn't that the definition of a minority group and the problems with any democracy? And why should the majority bend to the will of a minority?

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#292
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's with these ideas? Paying off the slaveowners is not just an "idea". It actually happened . In every other country that ended slavery. That's why I'm drawing the comparison. Every other country managed to end slavery without fighting a war that cost a million lives. So why did the US have to? > what part of our history to 1860 would lead you to believe that it was our policy to pay money for freedom? You're m…

Oh guy. Come on man. You don't negotiate with terrorists. Maybe I should just ask you to get a better idea of how you're thinking about this whole thing, do you think we should have paid the British?

> You don't negotiate with terrorists.

So you think the slaveowners were terrorists? You think the British in Colonial times were terrorists? On what basis?

> do you think we should have paid the British?

I answered this in another part of this subthread: yes, if the British would have accepted payment in exchange for our independence, and we could have afforded the payment, we should have paid them.

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#293

I always hate the framing as “polarized”. There’s tons of things Democrats and Republicans agree on. Military spending goes up every year. Save for Dodd-Frank, deregulation has been common across presidencies for 30 years along with corporate tax cuts... The establishment gets things done, they really do, it’s just not things that help everyday people. I’m not sure how this would help that.

> deregulation has been common across presidencies for 30 years

I think by any objective measure the US has seen an explosive growth in regulation the last 30 years.

I really wish I had an objective measure around to demonstrate this with...

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#294
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> moralizers" like Hamilton, Washington, and Ben Franklin, who were so obstinate and short sighted they refused to simply pay the British Crown instead of fighting such a destructive war You think the Colonies could have paid the British Crown to become independent? Where are you getting that from? What makes you think the British would have accepted it? But if you are just asking as a pure hypothetical-- should the…

There was no option to pay the south either, but you believe we should have. So why not engage in revisionist fantasies. But no, I don't believe we should have paid the British either. Of course not. Pay off every world power hard up for money that comes along? No way. You start off that way, you've set yourself up for extreme and painful failure. Best to have one war at the outset so that all the other global powers…

> Pay off every world power hard up for money that comes along?

I have not proposed any such thing. Being willing to pay money for a specific valuable objective--independence for the American Colonies, freedom for the slaves of the American South--is not at all the same as being willing to pay money to anyone who comes along and asks for it.

> You can try paying off bullies

So you think the British were bullying the American Colonies? You think the South was bullying the North before the Civil War? On what basis?

If you look at the historical record, you will see that, if anything, it was the Colonies bullying the British until the British got fed up, and the Northern abolitionists bullying the South until the South got fed up.

> You're being a bit naive man.

No, I'm simply taking to its logical conclusion a premise that seems obvious to me: that paying for something with money, if you can, is better than paying for it with human lives.

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? The "public" didn't force you to do anything. The public is just people. You're part of the public, for Christ's sake. A representative who would act as you propose wouldn't be screwing some mysterious nefarious entity that likes to enslave people, they'd be screwing you . > You don't get to complain about "fairness" or the "right" way for me to protest, when you are forcing me into slavery. What about the part…

> it doesn't matter how hard you try to sabotage it. It won't do dick. Sure it will. It will help cause more bad policies to happen, at the margin. There would be lots of controversial laws, and 10% of people voting here to mess things up, would effect something. That's my revenge on the 90% that forced me into this, because of their "support". > Surely they can bloody negotiate Why do that, when we can just sabotage…

> Sure it will. It will help cause more bad policies to happen, at the margin.

Very unreliably. You will only be able to influence policies that are nearly 50/50, but if they are 50/50, that is because there is widespread disagreement over which option is better. This means there is a fairly high chance that your "sabotage" vote ironically results in better policy. Think about it: the issue is 50/50, and you have the decisive vote. Half of the voters are wrong. What do you think the odds are that you're in the half that knows what it's doing?

My analysis is that odds that the average saboteur would vote for a bad policy ought to be roughly proportional to the proportion of honest voters that pick the good policy. Unfortunately, these odds are a toss-up when the saboteur's influence is maximized.

> Why do that, when we can just sabotage things?

To get results. Your gripes are understandable enough not to be dismissed, and if you can make a credible threat of sabotage, you may be able to cause a reform and perhaps get your freedom back before the end of the term. Sabotage can be a valid tactic to get what you want, especially if you're in desperate straits, but I don't see how your stunts are supposed to achieve anything at all, let alone anything that cannot be achieved more efficiently through collaboration.

> You don't get to force me into this, and complain when I fight back.

Was I actually complaining, though? When I say your behavior in this situation would be sociopathic, I mean it as a statement of fact. Notice that I followed the remark with "that's part of the risk in the system," clearly indicating that I am willing to eat that loss. I'm not complaining. I'm accounting. (Also, I genuinely think you would be working against your own interests.)

> People do not have to react the way that you want them to, or that you find fair.

I know many people won't react the way I want them to. I know some people will act like sociopaths. This is a variable to quantify: if enough people would turn into madmen if they were forced to do this, well, that invalidates conscription, and it's back to the drawing board. Likewise, if a large number of people think my system is immoral, okay, sure, let's do something else.

I mean, I'm not married to the specifics: I think it is important to make sure that the sample is statistically unbiased, and conscription is the easiest way to do this, but if we can get close enough on a voluntary basis, hey, that's even better.

I do maintain that your reaction would be disproportionate and ultimately immoral. Again, though, I'm not complaining about it, because that would be pointless: you do you. But I'm taking note of it so that I can account for the seriousness of the threat.

Edit: And if the threat is serious enough, you win, really. I would oppose conscription and you wouldn't have to sabotage anything (well, if I had my way). Just want you to know I am listening, even if I disapprove of your behavior.

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#296
post #2

Looks like this would favor highly coordinated groups to have outsized influence over poorly coordinated groups. So people who vote in isolation have less influence than people who organize and vote as a bloc. I think it also means that places where one party predominates would require the minority party to be highly coordinated in order to have any chance with one single silver “bullet” whereas the dominant party ca…

This is democracy though.

The idea of a majority having more power than a minority is, as another user puts it "a feature, not a bug". If your goal is to best represent your population, then you want a system that counts people's opinions equally, regardless of what group/s they belong to.

The problem here isn't the voting system so much as the structure. The way to "better represent" minority groups is to have different weightings to those groups. But then that's difficult because you have to specify which groups are more equal than others. Clearly we like racial minorities and don't like minority groups like white nationalists (at least as a public), but most lines aren't this easy to differentiate.

The goal of voting systems like this is not so much to tackle this majority vs minority problem but rather to reduce tribalism. In a first past the post voting style your optimal strategy is not to pick the thing you like the most, but to rather pick the thing that you think is most likely to win and more closely aligns to your beliefs. These voting systems are more about finding common beliefs. For example, republicans and democrats agree on many issues. These systems are about anti-polarization, not about weighted representation.

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#297
post #2

Looks like this would favor highly coordinated groups to have outsized influence over poorly coordinated groups. So people who vote in isolation have less influence than people who organize and vote as a bloc. I think it also means that places where one party predominates would require the minority party to be highly coordinated in order to have any chance with one single silver “bullet” whereas the dominant party ca…

This is democracy though. The idea of a majority having more power than a minority is, as another user puts it "a feature, not a bug". If your goal is to best represent your population, then you want a system that counts people's opinions equally, regardless of what group/s they belong to. The problem here isn't the voting system so much as the structure. The way to "better represent" minority groups is to have diffe…

What comes to mind to me is highly organized is, for example, a NIMBY crowd; a pro crowd is not as tightly coordinated, they get trounced, even if in polling the pros are in majority.

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bribery doesn't seem rampant in jury service, where members are chosen by lottery. I'm sure we could find ways to keep bribery away.

If you picked and announced the jurors 60-425 days before they had to serve, I bet you'd see bribery in jury duty emerge.

I'm in UK, I was informed of my upcoming jury duty about 4 months or more before the actual service.

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#299
post #2

Looks like this would favor highly coordinated groups to have outsized influence over poorly coordinated groups. So people who vote in isolation have less influence than people who organize and vote as a bloc. I think it also means that places where one party predominates would require the minority party to be highly coordinated in order to have any chance with one single silver “bullet” whereas the dominant party ca…

Here is some back of the envelope math that I did: Assume you have two groups who are each 100% focused on a cause which the other group has no opinion of.

n = people in each group

b = individual vote budget

Each Group Votes Independently: n * sqrt(b) votes

If a group colludes s.t. group A gives (1/2)b votes to group B's issue and vice versa you get: 2 * n * sqrt((1/2)b)) votes which simplifies into Sqrt(2) * n * sqrt(b).

Yet coordinating between these two groups becomes more difficult and costly, growing somewhere between n (perfect coordination) and n^2 (total decentralization). Thus, regardless of how you coordinate it will always be more expensive than the influence you gain which grows at sqrt().

Even in this simple assumption collusion becomes a negative value decision.

Re: A New Way of Voting That Makes Zealotry Expensive

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you picked and announced the jurors 60-425 days before they had to serve, I bet you'd see bribery in jury duty emerge.

I'm in UK, I was informed of my upcoming jury duty about 4 months or more before the actual service.

We have similar for jury pool service (I have one in my mail pile for about 10 weeks of notice), but is your case assigned and known to you and the parties to the case? I only know the date and court (we also call the evening before to see if we even need to show up and even if we do have to show up, there's no guarantee that you'll get a case as they have to have a slight surplus rather than slight deficit of potential jurors). I doubt any of the parties know my name before the jury is invited to the challenge phase.

Said differently, if I was a defendant, could I find out the exact jurors 2-4 months ahead of time so that I could arrange to bribe them?

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