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America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

nytimes.com

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Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#161

Post by moduspol »

cr0sh wrote: post #103
sDlEzAtyoNAz wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really intriguing when you consider that non-hispanic whites are the most likely to own firearms, and that that group's size has been essentially stagnant for the past few decades and is currently in decline.

Collectors and others of similar nature aside, I tend to wonder if this is going to lead to problems in the future? I'm not anti-gun by a long shot (no pun intended), but pictures I have seen of some of these "collections" are staggering (like, enough guns and ammo to arm a small platoon of people). In many cases they aren't displayed as a collection, but closer to a weapons cache in waiting...for what kind of situat…

I can clear up the confusion. This is the kind of situation:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2019/04/30/violent-uprising...

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#162

Post by dfrage »

jfk13 wrote: post #55
sparrish wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a firearm enthusiast, the answer to "How many guys does one need?" is always "Just one more." It's a fun hobby that I can spend time with my kids. They also make great investments as a quality firearm holds it worth and often increases in value.

And of course, the more of them we have around, the better the chances that one of them will somehow accidentally get misused one day. Oh, sorry; I'm sure you're entirely careful and responsible, all the time, just like every other firearms buyer. So there's clearly no problem with having an ever-increasing number of them around.

Your fear has not come to pass. From 1980 to 2016, the last year the CDC has statistics for accidental gun deaths, they went from 800 to 500. At the same time the population increased by roughly 50%, and the rate of gun ownership increased dramatically as, for example, shall issue or better concealed carry swept the nation and made gun ownership a lot more useful for most of the people in most of the states.

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#163

Post by jakelazaroff »

leesalminen wrote: post #146
krilly wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it wrong to hurt other people for your benefit? If you are an alien learning about humans, you should start with some children's books. I think you're missing some pretty fundamental knowledge here

Who is a founder necessarily hurting when they sell their company to a PE firm? What I'm hearing you say is that once a founder starts a business and hires a single employee they must operate that company until death. That seems like a ridiculous position to me and perhaps you're missing some fundamental knowledge on life. If that were somehow codified to law, I would've never started a business.

Surely there's a lot of middle ground between "it's wrong to sell your company to a PE firm that will suck out all its money" and "once you hire a single employee you must operate that company until death".

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#164

Post by parrellel »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #100
systemkei wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>employed in corporate IT since I was 19 unlikely you'll ever collect from that 401k friend!

It is a huge disservice to take a cheap shot at 401ks. There is almost no case where someone who has the opportunity to contribute shouldn't do so.

Eh, after fees most standard 401Ks are only marginally better than a bank account at this point.

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#165

Post by some_random »

Simulacra wrote: post #3
vorpalhex wrote: post #2

This is not an uncommon story for firearm manufacturers unfortunately. Tooling costs are high, sales hard to predict, and designs can fail easily. Ian McCollum of Forgotten Weapons has done a lot of videos on this topic.

There's also the issue - perhaps - of market saturation. How many guns does one need? My pro-gun friends typically seem to have 2-3 but shy away from any more than that.

Need is just flat out the wrong word in the context of hobbies, it's like asking how many stamps or cars a collector needs. In the context of collecting, 2-3 guns is _crazy_ low.

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#166

Post by nradov »

parrellel wrote: post #164
WillPostForFood wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a huge disservice to take a cheap shot at 401ks. There is almost no case where someone who has the opportunity to contribute shouldn't do so.

Eh, after fees most standard 401Ks are only marginally better than a bank account at this point.

Due to compound returns, a marginal advantage makes a huge difference over a 40 year career.

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#167

Post by parrellel »

bluejekyll wrote: post #20
sparrish wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. This isn't a unique tale for a firearms manufacturer. This is a common tale for nearly any type of manufacturer that is bought out by private equity firms. They reduce costs and quality, load it with debt, suck it dry, and then dump it on their creditors.

I’ve read about this scenario many times, but I’m curious about why any creditor would lend money to a company that’s poised to do this. Wouldn’t these private equity firms lose the ability to borrow money based on past practices like this?

Partly, it sometimes works. Partly, the people who own the private equity firms also sit on bank boards.

Because you know, we stripped out most of those laws.

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#168

Post by sparkpy724 »

parrellel wrote: post #164
WillPostForFood wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a huge disservice to take a cheap shot at 401ks. There is almost no case where someone who has the opportunity to contribute shouldn't do so.

Eh, after fees most standard 401Ks are only marginally better than a bank account at this point.

I don' think you have the slightest idea what you are talking about. Almost all my 401K funds charge less than 1% a year and if you're in mostly equities you average 10% returns per year. Most bank accounts offer less than 1% Interest rates on deposits so its really not even close.

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#169

Post by sparkpy724 »

leesalminen wrote: post #151
everdrive wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure most of HN is aware of where selfish behavior can go wrong. My favorite personal example would be a "tragedy of the commons." For certain, groups where individuals all act in their own self interest sometimes come up with the best solutions for everyone. It bothers me that people believe either maxim must always be true for all circumstances. (this is effectively socialism vs. libertarianism) It seems very c…

Sure, the only things in life that are certain is death and taxes. Nothing else is really that black and white. I still don't believe that a founder doing what's best for them and their family is "wrong". Absolutely, employees should be a concern and a founder looking to be acquired should do whatever possible to ensure a successful future for them as well. But to say that a founder must own a company forever and eve…

>Absolutely, employees should be a concern and a founder looking to be acquired should do whatever possible to ensure a successful future for them as well.

Well then selling your company to a PE firm in a Leveraged Buyout is among the worst possible scenarios for your employees so by your own logic this is a bad choice.

Re: America’s Oldest Gun Maker Went Bankrupt: A Financial Engineering Mystery

#170

Post by username223 »

MrMorden wrote: post #114
sn0n wrote: post #98

I especially liked this bit "The pension fund for the Boston-area public water utility invests in Cerberus. The California State Teachers’ Retirement System, CalSTRS, is a Cerberus client, as is a pension fund for the Presbyterian Church as well as many university endowments, sovereign wealth funds and philanthropic foundations." Made me chuckle a bit inside, as I know a couple people who are less on the side of guns…

American universities have rushed to move as much lecturing as possible to adjuncts, and cap as many employees as possible at 29 hours/week to avoid the ACA. Just like with a fire-and-brimstone televangelist, it's only immoral if other people do it.

> American universities have rushed to move as much lecturing as possible to adjuncts... it's only immoral if other people do it.

No, it's just plain immoral, not to mention short-sighted. American primary and secondary schools are also squeezing their teachers, by hiring Filipinos on J-1 visas, just like tech companies do with H-1Bs.

It's a bit like like making room in your fridge by pushing everything back, then adding new stuff. It works for awhile, but eventually leaves you with a mess of spoiled milk and rotten vegetables in the back. You can only strip-mine a hill for so long before it's gone.

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