In search of a truce in the autism wars • Hacker News Board

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#11

Post by Analemma_ » Thu, May 02, 2019, 8:32 PM UTC

DiseasedBadger wrote: post #2

There is no genuine debate to be had. No one who has the ability to not be autistic, would choose to be. This is yet another example of how our toxic modern culture turns everything into an "identity". Some people are less healthy than others. That's potentially sad, potentially not a big deal. Neither way is there any excuse for this faketroversy.

That is... extremely untrue. I can point you in the direction of dozens, if not hundreds, of people who would not choose to not be autistic if the option was available, and would give you an angry dressing-down for even bringing it up.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#12

Post by msla » Thu, May 02, 2019, 8:33 PM UTC

DiseasedBadger wrote: post #2

There is no genuine debate to be had. No one who has the ability to not be autistic, would choose to be. This is yet another example of how our toxic modern culture turns everything into an "identity". Some people are less healthy than others. That's potentially sad, potentially not a big deal. Neither way is there any excuse for this faketroversy.

Echoing nicoburns: We really, really need to do something the DSM seems dead-set against, which is distinguishing between fine gradations of autism, and realizing that not making those distinctions results in people talking past each other.

For example, why are some people so afraid of autism? Is it bigotry against people like me who stim every so often and avoid eye contact? No, it's fear of a condition which leaves victims nonverbal and stimming to the point of self-harm. That is the fear which drives some nontrivial number of anti-vaxxers. Yes, their fears are utterly unfounded, but using the language to prevent people from even focusing on what they're afraid of is wrong.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#13

Post by ausbah » Thu, May 02, 2019, 8:33 PM UTC

DiseasedBadger wrote: post #2

There is no genuine debate to be had. No one who has the ability to not be autistic, would choose to be. This is yet another example of how our toxic modern culture turns everything into an "identity". Some people are less healthy than others. That's potentially sad, potentially not a big deal. Neither way is there any excuse for this faketroversy.

>No one who has the ability to not be autistic, would choose to be.

How do you know that? You aren't an autistic person, what gives you the right to suddenly speak for autistic people?

>This is yet another example of how our toxic modern culture turns everything into an "identity".

Google literally defines identity as "the fact of being who or what a person or thing is". Ergo a person with autism can have autism as apart of their identity. You can't just act like something someone is born with isn't apart of their identity.

Yeah, not everything someone is born with is worthy of making a fuss about, but I think things that do actively impact a person's wellbeing and interactions with society (developmental disorders, disabilities, race(?), etc.) are worthy of having a discussion about how to deal with them.

I know almost any autistic people is capable of living just as fulfilling of a life as anyone else, the bigger issue for me is people like you looking down on those who have slight deviations from established ideas of "normal" - but who are none the less capable of living fulfilling lives, contribuing to society, and interacting with others.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#14

Post by mediocrejoker » Thu, May 02, 2019, 8:41 PM UTC

gjm11 wrote: post #7

DiseasedBadger wrote: post #2

There is no genuine debate to be had. No one who has the ability to not be autistic, would choose to be. This is yet another example of how our toxic modern culture turns everything into an "identity". Some people are less healthy than others. That's potentially sad, potentially not a big deal. Neither way is there any excuse for this faketroversy.

It's completely untrue that "no one who has the ability to not be autistic, would choose to be"; plenty of autistic people are happy to be the way they are and would not want to change. (Pedantic note 1: If you're super-duper-literal about what you said, and take it to refer only to people who actually have the ability not to autistic, rather than speculating on what would happen if autistic people had the ability no…

I can think of one reason to lie; to lessen the emotional pain of "neurotypicals" looking down on them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanisms

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#15

Post by Madmallard » Thu, May 02, 2019, 8:45 PM UTC

Theres loads of research linking autism with metabolic dysfunction. It is not a state of health.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#16

Post by i80and » Thu, May 02, 2019, 8:49 PM UTC

DiseasedBadger wrote: post #2

There is no genuine debate to be had. No one who has the ability to not be autistic, would choose to be. This is yet another example of how our toxic modern culture turns everything into an "identity". Some people are less healthy than others. That's potentially sad, potentially not a big deal. Neither way is there any excuse for this faketroversy.

> No one who has the ability to not be autistic, would choose to be.

This is DEMONSTRABLY untrue. I highly recommend actually hanging out with and chatting with autistic people.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#17

Post by keenmaster » Thu, May 02, 2019, 8:49 PM UTC

We’re probably all better off because some people have autism. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s an evolutionary explanation for its prevalence. However, there are so many consequences to being “abnormal” that most neurotypicals would refuse to be reincarnated as autistic if given the choice. If you have autism, the traits conferred by the condition have become part of your identity. You very well may not see it as a disease the way that some people do. There’s no escaping society’s judgment though. Many social interactions are worse, and if they’re not it’s because you’re expending energy to hide yourself.

We must all become more accepting of each other and broaden the range of “acceptable behavior.” I was at Starbucks yesterday and overheard 2 friends dissecting everything they didn’t like about other people for over an hour. The subjects of gossip didn’t seem to have wronged them in any way. Why is this a normal thing in America? Do we have nothing better to do than judge others?

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#18

Post by watwut » Thu, May 02, 2019, 8:49 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #10

nicoburns wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This depends a lot on the severity of the condition... I have autistic traits, and although they do cause me some problems, they also give me advantages (an excellent career in software development due to unusually good logical thinking for example). I'm not convinced that I would choose to be otherwise.

I think that severely autistic people have an emotional life as real as anyone else, probably more empathy than they are able to express, but neurotypicals have a hard time having empathy for them. Thus i think the puppet is insulting to severe autists as well as less severe autists. It is typical neurological thinking to see somebody different as less than human.

One problem is that the lack of ability to express empathy oftentimes come across as cruelty. Not always, but quite often.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#19

Post by nicoburns » Thu, May 02, 2019, 8:49 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #10

nicoburns wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This depends a lot on the severity of the condition... I have autistic traits, and although they do cause me some problems, they also give me advantages (an excellent career in software development due to unusually good logical thinking for example). I'm not convinced that I would choose to be otherwise.

I think that severely autistic people have an emotional life as real as anyone else, probably more empathy than they are able to express, but neurotypicals have a hard time having empathy for them. Thus i think the puppet is insulting to severe autists as well as less severe autists. It is typical neurological thinking to see somebody different as less than human.

I would agree with that.

Re: In search of a truce in the autism wars

#20

Post by DiseasedBadger » Thu, May 02, 2019, 8:54 PM UTC

ausbah wrote: post #13

DiseasedBadger wrote: post #2

There is no genuine debate to be had. No one who has the ability to not be autistic, would choose to be. This is yet another example of how our toxic modern culture turns everything into an "identity". Some people are less healthy than others. That's potentially sad, potentially not a big deal. Neither way is there any excuse for this faketroversy.

>No one who has the ability to not be autistic, would choose to be. How do you know that? You aren't an autistic person, what gives you the right to suddenly speak for autistic people? >This is yet another example of how our toxic modern culture turns everything into an "identity". Google literally defines identity as "the fact of being who or what a person or thing is". Ergo a person with autism can have autism as a…

You're perspective is flawed. You can't assume everyone is equally able to speak for themselves.

One might not speak ill of a tyrant one has no prospects of escaping.