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TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

propublica.org

31–40 of 148 posts

Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#31
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It probably takes only a weekend for me to do this The tax code is very complex, and nobody could replicate these systems in a weekend. And even if you did, it would be out of date in a year.

Can you give me a specific example of something that you think would be very complex? Just to make sure I'm not missing out on something obvious.

Here's the spec. It's only 289 pages and changes almost every year. Good luck!

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p17.pdf

Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#33
post #9

Just curious, is there any value to making a clone of H&R Block / Intuit and making it open source (with also hosted somewhere)? It probably takes only a weekend for me to do this and I'll be happy to do it if there is significant interest from my fellow HNers. Besides, fuck Intuit, never been a fan of them for the exact reasons mentioned in the article.

good luck getting even close to all the crosschecks written that would make it a valid filing in a weekend. You might could create the site where you can fill out forms online, but that would be no different than filling them out by hand.

Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#34

How many articles are we going to have on this?

I'll explain my submission (I submitted the other article 6 days ago too): the tax reform bill, which would have enshrined tax prep companies to be the approved providers of free file tax software, had wide bipartisan support and was considered a likely shoo-in to be signed into law (it didn't even require a roll call vote in the House).

But people, including advocates and reporters, discovered the directives in robots.txt and tags, which have been out-in-plain-sight for at least a decade [0], and that has apparently led former employees to speak out and/or leak internal documents that will very likely lead to an investigation. Tax prep companies have spent millions per year in lobbying, and now a major, easy legislative victory may be spoiled because of robots.txt. It's pretty rare that we see grass-roots complaints actually stymie a popular bipartisan bill supported by industry lobbyists, nevermind because of a webdev technical issue.

[0] http://web.archive.org/web/20080512004753/http://turbotax.in...

Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#35
The issue is more than free filing. Everything seems to be broken.

I helped my brother in law file for an extension through the IRS web site. The IRS directed us to private companies including TurboTax to file the extension. We clicked on the free TurboTax link which nowhere had an ability to file for an extension!

I finally told my brother in law to print the extension form and mail it to the IRS.

The IRS should not include a link to something that doesn't exist.

Yikes!

Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#36
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It probably takes only a weekend for me to do this The tax code is very complex, and nobody could replicate these systems in a weekend. And even if you did, it would be out of date in a year.

Can you give me a specific example of something that you think would be very complex? Just to make sure I'm not missing out on something obvious.

If you think it can be replicated in a weekend ask yourself why it hasn't, given the billions involved.

Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#37
post #9

Just curious, is there any value to making a clone of H&R Block / Intuit and making it open source (with also hosted somewhere)? It probably takes only a weekend for me to do this and I'll be happy to do it if there is significant interest from my fellow HNers. Besides, fuck Intuit, never been a fan of them for the exact reasons mentioned in the article.

> It probably takes only a weekend for me to do this and I'll be happy to do it if there is significant interest from my fellow HNers.

I think you are underestimating by a long shot. Let's say that you forgo any UI and just make a command line tool that only developers use. And let's assume that you don't have tests, don't have any bugs, no any significant things that trip you up. To get something useful, you would need to:

1) Get a basic tool that handles the federal tax calculations for standard W2 income for single people and people filing as married couples

2) Handle common deductions and credits that are applicable without itemizing, such as child tax credits, Healthcare Savings account contributions, IRA contributions, self-employment deductions, alimony payments, educational costs for certain people, business expenses. Keep in mind that each of these has its own rules.

3) Handle multiple forms of income beyond W2, such as capital gains from investments (which are treated differently for people with different incomes and for short vs long term gains), income from dividends, bank accounts, gambling, etc.

4) OK, that's the easy stuff. Now, implement rules for handling state taxes. 50 different states + DC with 50+1 different sets of rules [0].

5) OK, so now, maybe you have something basic working, but if you want to be even a somewhat complete solution, you need to handle cases where people itemize instead of taking the standard deduction. And everything that can be itemized has it's own set of rules.

6) To be useful for anyone except yourself, you'll need documentation, because a lot of these things need some explanation unless you are a tax expert.

Oh, and here's the big thing. The rules can change every year. And they can change in every state and you need to keep it up-to-date. Having out-of-date tax software is worse than having no software at all.

So this is definitely more than a weekend project, even if you only want to handle a portion of the above. This is why so many people use Turbotax [1].

[0] And because you can deduct a portion of your state taxes from your federal if you itemize, you really can't offer JUST federal and call yourself a complete product.

[1] And even Turbotax doesn't do a great job if you are itemizing or have complicated business expenses. For example, say you work for yourself at a home office. Can you deduct your office? What if you have someone clean your house weekly and they also do your office? Your cellphone bill? What percentage of their work can you deduct? What if you didn't keep close track of some expenses or paid them in cash? What if you made a donation to your local church and got your business listed in their calendar... can that be deducted as a marketing expense? A lot of these things are very hard to automate and a good accountant will help you make a judgement call. Even if you are completely honest, there are some things that aren't black and white. Like how do you value items that you donated to a local thrift shop? Even if your goods were worth X, an accountant may not want to put the full amount down if it increases your risk of being audited.

Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#38
post #14

FWIW, Turbotax/H&R's hiding of their Free File site pages was discussed here about a week ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19758126 They have since made their pages discoverable by search engines and have denied that it was intentional obfuscation. But the news in TFA is that apparently someone at (or formerly at) H&R leaked internal documents with explicit guidance: > “Do not send clients to this Web Site u…

There is nothing in the law that would permanently prohibit the IRS from creating its own Free File program. Your first article even suggests that one modification would be to simply add that a sentence saying that the IRS is allowed to do that, and the change is that simple because that sentence would not contradict anything else in the bill, as Wyden initially explained.

The concern is that putting the Free File program into law would somehow make it less likely that the IRS would create its own program.

Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#39
post #9

Just curious, is there any value to making a clone of H&R Block / Intuit and making it open source (with also hosted somewhere)? It probably takes only a weekend for me to do this and I'll be happy to do it if there is significant interest from my fellow HNers. Besides, fuck Intuit, never been a fan of them for the exact reasons mentioned in the article.

http://opentaxsolver.sourceforge.net/

Re: TurboTax and H&R Block Saw Free Tax Filing as a Threat

#40

Can anybody suggest an alternative program that will help me file? I know I could probably do this myself, but I prefer having software validate my returns. It seems like this is something an indie developer could create, but maybe its too complicated and too risky?

http://opentaxsolver.sourceforge.net/
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