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Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

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Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#121
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a misunderstanding of ranges. Imagine you flip a coin 100 times and you only get 41 heads. Is this coin fair? 41 heads falls just within the 95% confidence interval for a fair coin over 100 flips, so you can answer yes in that regard. But things are not binary. It's all probabilistic. In other words, it's not like 40 heads = rigged coin, 41 = legit. Your assumed interval is going to be a normal distribution.…

Having spent several years doing a PhD that was primarily statistical analysis, I can assure you I understand ranges very well. I certainly did not assume it is a normal distribution. There are going to be multiple sources of uncertainty including statistical and systematic errors which have different distributions. Taking all that into account they came up with an overall bound, and the actual number is within that…

Then of course you know what I said does not strictly require a normal distribution. That the distribution is not normal is perfectly well indicated by the fact that their variance is imbalanced. They have some sort of high skew distribution in expected outcomes. This leads to two points. The first is that there is no model where you would argue that falling at a tail end of your distribution, repeatedly, is supportive evidence of your hypothesis. That's invariably going to be strong evidence for the null hypothesis.

The second is that the IPCC paper was published in 1990. I was using the heat data starting from 1989, as that's when the article I referenced was published. Here are the correct temperature deviations for testing the IPCC hypothesis which starts with 1990 as the baseline:

---

1990 = 0.44

2000 = 0.40

2010 = 0.7

current = 0.8

---

Your argument, which I believe is flawed, does not speak positively of the IPCC data even if we accept it to be true. From 1990 to 2000 the temperature dropped 0.04 degrees, which is of course well outside their 0.2 to 0.5 bound. From 2000 to 2010 it increased by 0.3 degrees, which does hit square on their expected value. From 2010 to present we've seen an increase of 0.1 degree. Unless we see a substantial increase over the next couple of years, we're likely to once again completely fall completely outside the IPCC predictions.

If you'd like to aggregate the data we see a 0.36 increase over 28 years = a decadal increase of less than 0.13, once again completely outside the IPCC range. And of course as we increase the time frames involved, we should be able to tighten that range as variance is reduced, which means we're even further outside their expected results. However, I'd also emphasize that this isn't really radically different than if we hit a decadal increase of 0.2. We're looking at seeing a tail distribution over and over, or something a bit below the tail distribution over and over.

----------------

Okay, but that is all an aside. The reason I am focusing on the director's comments is because politicians and other individuals are not debating the minutia of distribution mathematics, variance, and other such things. They are listening to these well established individuals and their predictions. And so why wasn't the individual who claimed a 1 to 7 degree increase immediately remanded and demoted by the UN? At the minimum why was the AP not immediately contacted by the UN to issue a correction?

In my opinion the answer is because people are being intentionally hyperbolic, mostly with good intentions. The idea is that people won't do anything if you tell them that what we expect is somewhat hotter days and maybe an increase in extreme weather events. And that is probably a correct assumption. So instead they resort to hyperbole preaching apocalyptic scenarios to come, as our UN Director did. But this is an even worse idea since when these 'prophecies' fail to come true it breeds skepticism towards further predictions. Climate progress plays out the tale of the boy who cried wolf!

Though I do have to say even when we just look at the models, something seems to be going wrong. This [1] is an image from the 2000 IPCC report indicating expected temperature changes from 1990 to 2030. We're currently about 75% of the way through that time frame and sitting on 0.36. It's possible that next decade will see an unprecedented ultra-rapid rise in heating, but if it doesn't then we're again looking at yet another complete failure of prediction. I think there is a clear hypothesis to explain what is going wrong, but this is already an excessively verbose post!

[1] - https://archive.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/tar/wg1/fig9-15.htm

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong, and trolling: https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-piecing-together-arct...

Not trolling. I genuinely believe that the evidence shows that a) carbon dioxide has nothing to do with warming and b) the world's climate is just fine. Your linked piece starts with the misleading graph from NOAA which conveniently starts at the peak of 1979, omitting all of the data we have since the 1920s showing Arctic sea ice is cyclical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIEGo8E9s_8

the second graph shown in that denialist video says nothing about arctic sea ice in the way the NOAA data do, which go back only to 1979. They are data about ice anomalies, not ice coverage. Also, I can't find a source for that second, allegedly IPCC graph, so it may be as fraudulent as the video's argument.

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#123
post #109
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allan Savory talks about the use of intensive grazing as a method for combatting desertification in Africa [0]. Herd fertilize while eating grasses that would otherwise fall into senescence and create pockets of erosion. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI

Alas their experiment concluded without significant difference between the treatment and non-treatment zones. Basically the guy (and holistic grazing) is a quack(ery). :/ https://www.truthordrought.com/holistic-grazing-myths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holistic_management_(agricultu...

Thanks for that, I believed this. I've got to stop trusting TED talks.

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#124
post #123
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alas their experiment concluded without significant difference between the treatment and non-treatment zones. Basically the guy (and holistic grazing) is a quack(ery). :/ https://www.truthordrought.com/holistic-grazing-myths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holistic_management_(agricultu...

Thanks for that, I believed this. I've got to stop trusting TED talks.

I loved TED Talks, but .. it turns out 20 minutes is rarely enough to get new and complex issues topped out with very unheard of solutions across. [0] And it became a ripe ground for crackpots and PR stuntfolk.

There are great and amazing TED talks, and Chris Anderson and the whole team seems to be able to pick great stories. But they probably lacked a scientific review panel back then. (They have a guideline nowadays: https://www.ted.com/about/our-organization/our-policies-term... and it talks about advisors and a science curator, etc.)

They would probably go a long way to supporting real proper 100% real world science by having a redactions list. (So a list of talks that turned out to be completely wrong or partially flawed.)

[0] topics like cosmology, quantum-computing-anything, artificial intelligence, energy (carbon capture, nuclear [especially thorium]), bio/sustainable/green/animal-friendly anything (recycling, food, plastics, construction, energy again), medical/health, and of course psychology (also behavioral economics) are all very much still work in progress, so accurately reporting on them would require at least 1-2 hours. unless we're talking about something very concrete like a picture of a black hole 53 million light years away reconstructed from petabytes of radio interferometry.

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember when it was accepted scientific consensus that plate tectonics was a crock of shit. Didn't make it any less true. If the data shows that the Arctic is doing fine, then I don't care how many climate alarmists say it's melting if it isn't. Tony Heller destroys the fundamental deception of global warming here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RwjYkYCXnU

>I remember when it was accepted scientific consensus that plate tectonics was a crock of shit. Didn't make it any less true. No one is saying science is infallible. It's just the best explanation for what we're seeing so far, based on empirical evidence. Your argument that science was wrong about something in the past does absolutely nothing to support any of your claims - for that you need to post evidence. >If the…

Here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236534420_Projectin...

Arctic sea ice is normal and cyclical and follows both short and long term cycles.

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#126

For those who haven't been watching this topic for the past few years: permafrost melt is the most probable factor for the possibility of a near-term extinction event.

Pretty much as soon as temperatures reach the point where permafrost naturally starts melting, then they've also reached the point (or soon will) where local flora (including microorganisms) start soaking up all or most of any emitted CO2. (AFAIK, the same holds true for methanotrophs and methane, too.) So while everybody likes to talk about exacerbating factors here, almost nobody talks about mitigating factors, which are considerable.

Also, the scary picture shown is of the Batagaika crater, and while they state that the permafrost there has been melting since the 1960s, they fail to mention that this was initiated by tree removal at that location (not sure what the story is there), so hardly a naturally occurring event. Also, that's 50 years' worth of melting you see there, so hardly a speedy event, either, and certainly not something which happened practically overnight. All of those trees still surrounding the area are no doubt soaking up as much of any freshly-emitted CO2 as they can get, too.

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not trolling. I genuinely believe that the evidence shows that a) carbon dioxide has nothing to do with warming and b) the world's climate is just fine. Your linked piece starts with the misleading graph from NOAA which conveniently starts at the peak of 1979, omitting all of the data we have since the 1920s showing Arctic sea ice is cyclical. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIEGo8E9s_8

the second graph shown in that denialist video says nothing about arctic sea ice in the way the NOAA data do, which go back only to 1979. They are data about ice anomalies, not ice coverage. Also, I can't find a source for that second, allegedly IPCC graph, so it may be as fraudulent as the video's argument.

NOAA data goes back to the early 1970s. The IPCC paper can be found after a fairly trivial Google search here: https://web.archive.org/web/20120428072521/https://www.ipcc....

Good. So let's summarize:

- someone who disagrees with you can be called names

- you're ignorant of the history of NOAA

- if you can't find something, then the other person is a fraud

- but you claim they make fraudulent arguments anyway so that's OK

Very scientific.

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#128

The recommendation for arboreal permafrost is to remove all the trees because grassland tundra hard freezes easier than forests, and this is necessary to maintain soil stability in the summer months. And to do so, reintroducing large megafauna herds that destroy trees are necessary, potentially with a mammoth/elephant hybrid; or with logging. Interestingly, large managed herds of grazing animals is a solution to gras…

Uh, removing trees is apparently what initiated the melting of the Batagaika crater, the scary effects of which are shown in the photograph. And allowing grazing will not only remove much of the remaining ground cover but will also cause soil disturbance from pawing and digging done by the animals, both of which may initiate melting.

It may be true, though, that there's a necessary balance here. Which is to say, that at least some surface melting may occur under conditions which also allow deeper freezing to occur.

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah - its about time someone started a focused group dedicated to climate change... > There will be a Puerto Rico contingency to the May Day Protests in NY that will create a specific performance relevant to the fight against debt and the 121 years of colonialism against Puerto Rico more generally. https://rebellion.earth/event/debt-is-a-hurricane-puerto-ric... Well, looks like another well intention green movement…

The biggest problem with this rebellion is that it advocates disruption in the countries doing the MOST to combat climate change. I don't see any events planned in the biggest CO2 producers.

Are you Chinese? Start some events in China.

Otherwise, I'd suggest you stop whining and start helping.

Re: Permafrost collapse is accelerating carbon release

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the second graph shown in that denialist video says nothing about arctic sea ice in the way the NOAA data do, which go back only to 1979. They are data about ice anomalies, not ice coverage. Also, I can't find a source for that second, allegedly IPCC graph, so it may be as fraudulent as the video's argument.

NOAA data goes back to the early 1970s. The IPCC paper can be found after a fairly trivial Google search here: https://web.archive.org/web/20120428072521/https://www.ipcc.... Good. So let's summarize: - someone who disagrees with you can be called names - you're ignorant of the history of NOAA - if you can't find something, then the other person is a fraud - but you claim they make fraudulent arguments anyway so that…

You are still cherrypicking by concentrating on these data, which are not conclusive. /so, you show me part of an in-depth paper saying that there were data before 1979 .It appears there might. However, in the paper, it says there was not much variance in sea ice significantly between the 1953 and 1984, but that 1960-80 was significantly colder anomaly period. (pp 224-5). But after that... much decline. None of what you talk about it particularly relevant, given ALL the other data about melting glaciers and sea ice extents since 1990, which you carefully ignore.

Look here, for example https://sites.google.com/site/arcticseaicegraphs/longterm

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