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Top Test Scores From Shanghai Stun Educators

nytimes.com

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Re: Top Test Scores From Shanghai Stun Educators

#41

Post by jasonjei »

ovi256 wrote: post #37
jasonjei wrote: post #32

People wonder if these test scores in China are beyond the norm. But the bitter truth is that these scores are indicative of their Confucian training, not any independent thinking that a "standardized" test could evaluate. The Chinese education should be noted for a strong emphasis on rote memorization and the regurgitation of lectures. Unlike most Western philosophies of education (e.g, Plato), the Chinese education…

The last paragraphs of the article directly refute your point: “While that’s important, for me the real significance of these results is that they refute the commonly held hypothesis that China just produces rote learning.” “Large fractions of these students demonstrate their ability to extrapolate from what they know and apply their knowledge very creatively in novel situations,” he said. The Chinese generation that…

Mr. Schleicher says that while reviewing the test results. The LSATs, for instance, is a test that requires knowledge applied creatively, too, but it doesn't mean successful test-takers are able to produce Google or Facebook. In fact, successful test-taking implies conformity with the graded standard, and is intended to measure how students stack up against a defined standard.

Would you say the US-equivalent of Advanced Placement exams be a good measure of creativity? It requires creativity in solutions too--but the real question is, can you TEST creativity? Can you test the ability for people to see problems? A test, by nature, has already presented a problem. It doesn't test if they can see a problem and devise a solution.

With enough practice, you can answer every tested problem type on a "standardized" test. A Chinese student told me that when he was studying for the SATs he looked for every single problem type and that once he had considered every problem type, it was just a matter of applying the same strategy to the problem. The key is that since the test is "standardized," you can look for the standard types of problems.

I'm questioning the culture, I suppose. Not the people. The culture in China hasn't really changed.[1]

[1] An interesting tidbit: Mao observed the effects of Confucianism and how it stilted innovation in China and launched the "Cultural Revolution" as a means to deprecate Confucianism.

Re: Top Test Scores From Shanghai Stun Educators

#42

Post by kahirsch »

ars wrote: post #3
ghshephard wrote: post #2

A nice description of the OECD PISA: http://www.oecd.org/about/0,3347,en_2649_35845621_1_1_1_1_1,... This is a pretty decent summary: "PISA is a three-yearly survey of 15-year-olds in the 30 OECD member countries and 35 partner countries . It assesses the extent to which students near the end of compulsory education have acquired the knowledge and skills essential in everyday life. They are tested in the domains of r…

This is not politically correct to say, but given the gap between white and black scores, I wonder how the US would do if you ranked it based only on white scores. Also, when judging how well a country will do in science you should not look at the average, but rather at the top. Only a small number of people will choose a career in the sciences, so as long as you have those people, the ones at the bottom don't matter…

For the U.S., there are breakdowns by race available. The detailed stats are only available on one of the big categories at a time (math in 2003, science in 2006, reading in 2009).

For 2003, the math scores by race are here: http://www.nces.ed.gov/surveys/PISA/PISA2003HighlightsFigure...

In 2003, students in the United States averaged 483 on the math literacy test and 477 on the problem solving test (24th place in the OECD in each). Non-Hispanic White students in the U.S. averaged 512 points on math literacy and 506 points on problem solving. That's equivalent to 15th place and 13th place, respectively.

Re: Top Test Scores From Shanghai Stun Educators

#43

Post by tygorius »

jasonjei wrote: post #40
micrypt wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might not be your intent but your comment does sound a tad dismissive. Alibaba, Baidu and DangDang are, amongst others, considerably successful businesses. Perhaps their similarities to Western contemporaries are partly due to the fact that we are all human in the end and happen to have similar needs. However, they are remarkably innovative in their own contexts.

The culture in China doesn't entirely foster it. I agree China is entirely capable of producing excellent software. But that doesn't change the culture. I've breathed it when I lived in China for several months. You'll notice that college students in China are always in groups, and there is a hive mentality to decision making. The self isn't as important as the group. Espirit de corps. Jack Ma of Alibaba spent consid…

It seems to me that your assertion that Asian countries "have a difficult time with creativity" is unproven. Yes, the culture encourages conformance. But it not clear from anything you've cited thus far that either the Chinese government or a significant number of the Chinese people think their supposed lack of creative thinking is somehow holding them back. The government's recent ability to completely flout the spirit of the WTO rules while obeying them in the letter strikes me as fairly creative, for example. (I'm thinking of the defacto emabargo of rare earth metal exports to Japan, wherein "independently" several dozen exporters stopped shipping on the same day.)

To cite the field of software and content for examples is a mistake, I believe, because it's based on a presupposition that IP can't, won't, or shouldn't approach zero cost. If I were a Chinese administrator, I wouldn't care much if the blogging software my people were using was a clone of something from the West nearly as much as I'd be concerned that their creativity of expression was kept within the bounds of the Greater Good.

Re: Top Test Scores From Shanghai Stun Educators

#44

Post by tygorius »

jasonjei wrote: post #41
ovi256 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last paragraphs of the article directly refute your point: “While that’s important, for me the real significance of these results is that they refute the commonly held hypothesis that China just produces rote learning.” “Large fractions of these students demonstrate their ability to extrapolate from what they know and apply their knowledge very creatively in novel situations,” he said. The Chinese generation that…

Mr. Schleicher says that while reviewing the test results. The LSATs, for instance, is a test that requires knowledge applied creatively, too, but it doesn't mean successful test-takers are able to produce Google or Facebook. In fact, successful test-taking implies conformity with the graded standard, and is intended to measure how students stack up against a defined standard. Would you say the US-equivalent of Advan…

> _it doesn't mean successful test-takers are able to produce Google or Facebook._

Seriously, how many Googles or Facebooks does China need to create internally for its needs? Is there any reason to believe their internal markets are being significantly held back by too much derivative software?

As to Mao and the stifling of innovation, my limited reading of history doesn't paint him as a big champion of diversity during the Great Leap Forward. How many millions died because of that bright idea of encouraging farmers to kill the evil sparrows that were eating the people's grain?

Re: Top Test Scores From Shanghai Stun Educators

#45

Post by tygorius »

jerf wrote: post #39
ovi256 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last paragraphs of the article directly refute your point: “While that’s important, for me the real significance of these results is that they refute the commonly held hypothesis that China just produces rote learning.” “Large fractions of these students demonstrate their ability to extrapolate from what they know and apply their knowledge very creatively in novel situations,” he said. The Chinese generation that…

I'd like someone to explain to me how doing well on an international standardized test somehow refutes the rote learning claim. I mean, yes, I am every bit as skeptical as I sound, but it is a serious question as well, if someone has a concrete answer. It's very easy to say that these test results prove that they are not just pulling things out of their memory banks, but that doesn't mean there's any actual logic or…

There are too many variables in the Shanghai equation to claim a refutation, but since lowering the reliance on rote memorization was specifically mentioned as an improvement that school administrators had made, presumably you and the local school officials see limited benefit in emphasizing rote memorization.

As to how the evaluator got to his claim of creative reasoning in the students, the OECD test includes both multiple-choice and open-response questions. Presumably the latter was the basis for the evaluator's assessment.

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