Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice' • Hacker News Board

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#121

Post by mafribe » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:07 AM UTC

azernik wrote: post #91

mafribe wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emergency Acts (Notstandsgesetze) were passed in 1968. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Emergency_Acts

Which are much more limited than Weimar emergency powers. Only specific freedoms can be limited (certain types of privacy, movement, and career), limited legislative powers devolve onto a proportionally-assembled subset of the full legislature rather than to the executive, and the federation can only take control of state forces in emergencies that cross state borders. Plus a specific exception that says a state of e…

Yes, and that fits perfectly with: Grundgesetz = Weimar-debugged.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#122

Post by lostlogin » Thu, May 02, 2019, 10:20 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #104

mises wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly didn't blame the west. I personally think it has done more good than harm in the long term. My only point was that not all cultures take to democracy in the same way.

I was responding to @lostlogin’s response to you.

I don’t entirely follow sorry, could you expand a little on your comment about it being patronising how Americans blame the west?

In the Middle East, there are so many bad actors it’s ridiculous. I haven’t consciously encountered Americans blaming the west for the situation in the Middle East. Does the definition of ‘west’ you are using include the US?

In case it is relevant, I am from New Zealand and think the disgusting behaviour in the region started long before the US got involved and includes far more countries than any set defined as ‘western’. Even places as far away and as small as New Zealand have ended up with a record of massacres and murders when in involved in the region.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#123

Post by rayiner » Thu, May 02, 2019, 12:10 PM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #122

rayiner wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was responding to @lostlogin’s response to you.

I don’t entirely follow sorry, could you expand a little on your comment about it being patronising how Americans blame the west? In the Middle East, there are so many bad actors it’s ridiculous. I haven’t consciously encountered Americans blaming the west for the situation in the Middle East. Does the definition of ‘west’ you are using include the US? In case it is relevant, I am from New Zealand and think the disgu…

I’m saying Americans blame the west, not necessarily that Americans blame America. America had very little to do in the subcontinent, for example.

As to it being patronizing. Speaking for myself—I think if you can’t blame people for the state of their own country, you’re taking agency away from those people. The British did lots of bad things in the subcontinent and looted it. (They also left some really good values and ideas and institutions.) But that ended 70 years ago. In that same time period, South Korea went from being nearly as poor, and far more war torn, to being a developed nation. It’s not the absence of interference from the west that did that, it’s the industry and virtue of the Korean people. Likewise, to the extent Bangladesh hasn’t grown as fast as it should (and to be fair, things have gotten better at least on the economic side in the last decade), who is to blame? I think it’s patronizing to continue to blame the west. Maybe blame the fact that Bangladeshis supported a military dictator for President, supported dismantling secularism, invited fundamentalism in from the Middle East, etc. Whose fault is it? Maybe it’s the fault of the clerks in the Bangladesh Supreme Court that demand bribes to quickly your filings quickly. If we credit Koreans for the development of their country, Bangladeshis must get their fair share of blame for what is happening in their own country.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#124

Post by ConcernedCoder » Thu, May 02, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

afthonos wrote: post #43

ConcernedCoder wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My unpopular opinion: Questioning someone longer than they want to provide answers, when that same person is unable to leave the interview is a form of torture -- change my mind.

You’re taking a known-bad word (“torture”) and attaching it to something you disagree with, getting free mileage for your position. So, without using “torture”, what is the position of yours you’re challenging us to change?

I'm saying that being excessively questioned in a situation where you are detained against your will IS a form of torture, I'm not sure how I can be more clear?

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#125

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Thu, May 02, 2019, 4:36 PM UTC

wemdyjreichert wrote: post #102

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran is in the Middle East and had a democratic revolution. (Perhaps somewhat betrayed by their strange bedfellow, but still.)

You would call Iran democratic? You would claim it protects the liberty of its citizens? Allows for religious freedom? Iran's elections are widely considered shams: https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2017/05/12/irans-farce...

I say strange bedfellows for a reason. The Iranian Revolution had two components: people wanting a more democratic country, and people wanting a more theocratic country. The result was a weird hybrid, and arguably the latter group got the better deal.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#126

Post by lostlogin » Thu, May 02, 2019, 6:36 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #123

lostlogin wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t entirely follow sorry, could you expand a little on your comment about it being patronising how Americans blame the west? In the Middle East, there are so many bad actors it’s ridiculous. I haven’t consciously encountered Americans blaming the west for the situation in the Middle East. Does the definition of ‘west’ you are using include the US? In case it is relevant, I am from New Zealand and think the disgu…

I’m saying Americans blame the west, not necessarily that Americans blame America. America had very little to do in the subcontinent, for example. As to it being patronizing. Speaking for myself—I think if you can’t blame people for the state of their own country, you’re taking agency away from those people. The British did lots of bad things in the subcontinent and looted it. (They also left some really good values…

Thank you for that reply, I see your point and it’s a good one.

I think that the two arguments are not in opposition though. It is possible for foreign interference to have harmed democracy in the Middle East and for locals to have damaged it too, and there are plenty of examples of this.

Re: Examining Carlos Ghosn and Japan's System of 'Hostage Justice'

#127

Post by azernik » Fri, May 03, 2019, 12:57 AM UTC

mafribe wrote: post #121

azernik wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which are much more limited than Weimar emergency powers. Only specific freedoms can be limited (certain types of privacy, movement, and career), limited legislative powers devolve onto a proportionally-assembled subset of the full legislature rather than to the executive, and the federation can only take control of state forces in emergencies that cross state borders. Plus a specific exception that says a state of e…

Yes, and that fits perfectly with: Grundgesetz = Weimar-debugged .

Yup!

It's been really interesting listening to German radio this last year, as we're passing 100th anniversaries of assorted formative events of the Weimar era. The idea of the Bundesrepublik being the successor of the republican Reich isn't just a legal concept, it's a very deeply held view (at least among the political and journalistic classes).