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Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

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Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#351

Post by unityByFreedom »

sorokod wrote: post #297
unityByFreedom wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if AP is really 2x safer as Musk claims. Highway driving is already significantly safer per mile than local roads, > The grim statistics provided by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration also show that drivers on rural roads die at a rate 2.5 times higher per mile traveled than on urban highways. Urban drivers travel twice as many miles but suffer close to half the fatal accidents. [1] Could thi…

This x2.5 death rate is highly correlated to the speed the medics can arrive at the scene of the accident.

That may be. The point here is AP is mostly used on highways and that we are unable to verify Musk's claims without data from Tesla.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#352

Post by will_pseudonym »

robinduckett wrote: post #324

Do they not have Rumble strips in the US? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumble_strip I have been in situations in my youth where I was commuting or travelling tired, and nothing alerts you like the loud rumbling sound, and I'm sure the autopilot could detect it and bring the car to a stop if the driver hasn't been alerted by the in car warning system or the rumble paint...

We do have them, though they're not required by law and are not always present.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#353

Post by v_lisivka »

huhtenberg wrote: post #339

This person died because of Tesla's cocky marketing, which leads people to believe that "Auto Pilot" is just that and that does very little to discourage this interpretation even though it is life-threatening. In this context them blaming it on the accident victim is a 100% asshole move. I am life-long Musk's fan, but Tesla trying their hardest to weasel out of any responsibility here is incredibly damaging to their…

Autopilot is just autopilot. There was lot of plane crashes with autopilot involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLrIXptqZxw

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#354

Post by unityByFreedom »

hef19898 wrote: post #349
sytelus wrote: post #254

Tesla's blog post: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-last-week’s-accident the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider Looks like sensors failed to see concrete divider in nice sunny weather and car slammed in to it at 70mph. Driver was obviously over confident on system's a…

Regarding the second paragraph from Tesla the interesting numbers would be fatalities per driven mile without autopilot engaged vs miles with autopilot engaged. Just being equipped with autopilot doesn't tell anything in that regard.

> the interesting numbers would be fatalities per driven mile without autopilot engaged vs miles with autopilot engaged

Exactly. I imagine hell freezes over before we see such data. Tesla did not even provide complete data to NHTSA [1]

[1] https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26455/nhtsas-flawed-autopilot-...

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#355

Post by rightbyte »

sjwright wrote: post #318
dubyah wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with the no hands-on-steering-wheel detection claim Tesla keeps bringing up is that it's quite fallible and not as conclusive as they insist. A light touch(like one might expect while driving a freeway with cruise control and lane-keep assist, for example) may not provide enough torque for the sensor to detect it. Plenty of people have complained about it in the past. https://forums.teslarati.com/threads/…

> The problem with the no hands-on-steering-wheel detection claim Tesla keeps bringing up I don't get why it matters. Why is Tesla's responsibility greater or lesser based on the position of the driver's hands? The driver could have had one hand on the wheel while mousing around on a laptop with the other. Or he could have been intensely focused on the road ahead with his hands resting on his legs, inches away from t…

It's a dead man switch. If the dead man switch is not working it's a system malfunction.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#356

Post by pteraspidomorph »

rolleiflex wrote: post #340
sytelus wrote: post #254

Tesla's blog post: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-last-week’s-accident the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider Looks like sensors failed to see concrete divider in nice sunny weather and car slammed in to it at 70mph. Driver was obviously over confident on system's a…

I'm paraphrasing from the last time this was posted, but Tesla's words need to be read very carefully. What they say is: > the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision What Tesla does not say is that the six seconds the driver's hands were not on the wheel was immediately preceding the crash. It is any six seconds before the crash. Admittedly this is a very dark reading, ho…

That's not what I read in this article.

> Huang’s hands were detected on the steering wheel only 34 seconds during the last minute before impact.

If during the last minute before impact the hands were missing for any 26 seconds, then it makes no sense to say that they were missing for any 6 seconds. The 6 seconds can only be consecutive before the impact, right?

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#357

Post by hef19898 »

sjwright wrote: post #323
aneutron wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they actually didn't. They specifically tell you it is NOT a fully autonomous autopilot and that's it's more of an advanced cruise control. They also specifically tell you to KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD. If you fail to do so, you're asking for trouble. It is unfortunate the guy haf kids that will now grow up orphans, but judging from the information I've read in the Tesla blog post, it is clear that he was in the…

Not only does the car provide repeated warnings, we can pretty clearly infer that—like anyone who has used Autopilot—he had become reasonably proficient at avoiding the warnings. So not only was he warned, he was actively working to avoid those warnings. (Edit: to those voting me down, please contribute your objections to the discussion.)

Well, the warnings were unrelated and 15 minutes before the crash for once. So that invalids the ignored warnings in that case. I assume the real chain of events will be analyzed now. And the fact that the Autopilot is named the way it is for, presumably, marketing reasons doesn't help.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#358

Post by unityByFreedom »

rolleiflex wrote: post #340
sytelus wrote: post #254

Tesla's blog post: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-last-week’s-accident the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider Looks like sensors failed to see concrete divider in nice sunny weather and car slammed in to it at 70mph. Driver was obviously over confident on system's a…

I'm paraphrasing from the last time this was posted, but Tesla's words need to be read very carefully. What they say is: > the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision What Tesla does not say is that the six seconds the driver's hands were not on the wheel was immediately preceding the crash. It is any six seconds before the crash. Admittedly this is a very dark reading, ho…

> I genuinely don't understand where their apparent need for pushing the definition of truth to its breaking point is coming from.

One theory is Musk has been misrepresenting the company's products for years in order to keep the valuation high, and he's now dug the hole so deep he can't find a way out.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#359

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

sytelus wrote: post #254

Tesla's blog post: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-last-week’s-accident the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider Looks like sensors failed to see concrete divider in nice sunny weather and car slammed in to it at 70mph. Driver was obviously over confident on system's a…

>> In the US, there is one automotive fatality every 86 million miles across all vehicles from all manufacturers. For Tesla, there is one fatality, including known pedestrian fatalities, every 320 million miles in vehicles equipped with Autopilot hardware. If you are driving a Tesla equipped with Autopilot hardware, you are 3.7 times less likely to be involved in a fatal accident.

HN's Contrarian Skeptics Brigade can correct me on this (I repent!), but I think this is not very different than saying:

"10 out of all 100 people get this disease. We tested this hand-picked group of 10 people and found that only 1 of them had it. This small group is ten times more healthy than the general population!"

The number of Tesla cars with Autopilot in circulation must certainly be a small fraction of all vehicles on US roads (including bicycles, etc). It makes sense that, if you look for an event in a smaller population you should expect to see it happening in a different rate than in a larger population - for the same reason that if you toss a coin ten times and count the proportion of heads it may well be different than 0.5, but if you toss it one million times you're much more likely to see it landing heads half of the time. More observations allow you to better estimate the true distribution of events.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#360

Post by v_lisivka »

sjwright wrote: post #318
dubyah wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with the no hands-on-steering-wheel detection claim Tesla keeps bringing up is that it's quite fallible and not as conclusive as they insist. A light touch(like one might expect while driving a freeway with cruise control and lane-keep assist, for example) may not provide enough torque for the sensor to detect it. Plenty of people have complained about it in the past. https://forums.teslarati.com/threads/…

> The problem with the no hands-on-steering-wheel detection claim Tesla keeps bringing up I don't get why it matters. Why is Tesla's responsibility greater or lesser based on the position of the driver's hands? The driver could have had one hand on the wheel while mousing around on a laptop with the other. Or he could have been intensely focused on the road ahead with his hands resting on his legs, inches away from t…

It's driver responsibility to drive the car and pay attention to the road.
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