Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#341

Post by systemtest » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:26 AM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #78

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #53

If the Tesla had a proximity sensor that slammed on the breaks in the last 2-3 meters, would he have survived? I ask because it's a common luxury car feature and would be easy for Tesla to implement. IIRC this crash and the semitruck crash had no evidence of the autopilot hitting the breaks according to the NTSB. Even if his velocity was only reduced by a fraction, the amount of power involved in the collision would…

His car increased speed because the adaptive cruise was set to a higher speed than his car was going, and for 4 seconds before impact there were no cars in front of him. The adaptive cruise increased speed to his set point when his car left the flow of traffic. The AEB will not trigger on a stationary object at highway speeds. I do not believe there exists any AEB that will emergency brake at highway speed, maybe exc…

I don't understand that the attenuator wasn't reset. In my country the lane will stay closed until all safety feature are operational again, including replacing the guardrail.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#342

Post by TomMckenny » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:30 AM UTC

sytelus wrote: post #254

Tesla's blog post: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-last-week’s-accident the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider Looks like sensors failed to see concrete divider in nice sunny weather and car slammed in to it at 70mph. Driver was obviously over confident on system's a…

The other fatalities and subsequent orphans, of which there are vastly more, don't get ratings and don't offend a bevy of long standing sponsors.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#343

Post by mikejb » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:37 AM UTC

huhtenberg wrote: post #339

This person died because of Tesla's cocky marketing, which leads people to believe that "Auto Pilot" is just that and that does very little to discourage this interpretation even though it is life-threatening. In this context them blaming it on the accident victim is a 100% asshole move. I am life-long Musk's fan, but Tesla trying their hardest to weasel out of any responsibility here is incredibly damaging to their…

I generally agree with you on the Tesla marketing issues, but it's not entirely as black and white: The driver reported issues at that very location multiple times, and complained about AP not working reliably. The driver definitely was aware of flaws and issues with AP, worse yet, was aware of issues with AP at the location of the crash. Tesla's marketing may have contributed and may generally give a false sense of functionality/security, but Huang already knew it wasn't true. Yet still, at the location he knew AP had problems, he failed to pay attention to the road.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#344

Post by barrkel » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:38 AM UTC

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #73

barrkel wrote: post #21

I think it's deeply irresponsible to create a device which can drive in 90 or 95% of scenarios. It's just a way to fool humans into killing themselves.

If the system is even a few percent better than humans then it would save thousands of lives when widely deployed. Musk has made this argument many times. Basically don't let perfect be the enemy of better. But if the vendor is legally liable in each case then this software is untenable.

If the system is even a few percent better than humans

I don't think this can be true for a 90 or 95% solution. I think too many people would think the system can drive for them, because they're not Tesla enthusiasts and they're not reading all the caveats about what the aids can and can't do, and they'll gradually start to rely on autopilot until the day it lets them down, possibly with a very negative outcome.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#345

Post by garmaine » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:44 AM UTC

sytelus wrote: post #254

Tesla's blog post: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-last-week’s-accident the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider Looks like sensors failed to see concrete divider in nice sunny weather and car slammed in to it at 70mph. Driver was obviously over confident on system's a…

> Humans killing humans is very different thing than machines killing humans even if the fatality rates are 10X lower.

So it is better for 10 humans to die at the hands of other humans, than one machine caused death? In what moral framework is that true?

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#346

Post by hvidgaard » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:48 AM UTC

hnlmorg wrote: post #322

hvidgaard wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While we may get to the point where sensors and a form of AI can reliably drive a car, we're so far from it that we don't even know if we're heading towards the goal post. What we need, if we want to solve the partial self driving problem right now, is not fully autonomous systems. We could start by agreeing on a way for cars to sense the road - think in the way robotic lawn mowers work where you have to bury cables.…

The problem we have right now is that: 1. laying cables wouldn't work because there are a great many historic towns and cities (eg Amsterdam) and digging up cobble streets to lay cables for self-driving vehicles simple isn't going happen when those cities have so many bigger problems for autonomous cars such as trams, cycle paths, pedestrian zones and tourists what will just walk out in front of everyone in an unpred…

I specifically said that it should be done on high volume, maintained roads, such as highways and ring roads. It doesn't have to happen overnight, but it could happen gradually. It would serve other purposes too, like guidance for snow plows. It's a 80/20 solution - cover 80% of the travel for 20% of the cost. Solving the problem on highways and high volume roads without cyclists are significantly easier, and would still give a tremendous benefit.

Regarding laying the cables in existing roads. We're already pretty good at "shooting" cables under existing roads with pneumatic solutions, and I'm confident that we could do so for rural roads at a modest price. But that's a different talk.

If we want to develop an "AI" for this, it's not going to be ready in 10 year, nor 20 - we do not have the processing power, or understanding of the domain to do it at this point, and we're moving rather slowly. Some of the more practical problems such as secure communication are 100% solved, and reliable car, pedestrian, cycle detecting are problems that are, fairly well understood at this point, and we certainly can make solutions that rival even alert and good drivers.

Things like this move slowly - it's not going to be retrofitted, but agreeing on a standard and new vehicles can implement in gradually.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#347

Post by tapland » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:51 AM UTC

hyperbovine wrote: post #279

sytelus wrote: post #254

Tesla's blog post: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-last-week’s-accident the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider Looks like sensors failed to see concrete divider in nice sunny weather and car slammed in to it at 70mph. Driver was obviously over confident on system's a…

“Equipped with” is not the same as “while using”. What’s that stat? They probably know it.

If you disconnect it just before slamming into a wall at 80 mph the driver was at fault. //Tesla

I really want one, but trust erodes at record speed with this kind of cherry picked and misleading claims.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#348

Post by garmaine » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:54 AM UTC

mkesper wrote: post #275

beering wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other airplanes. Also the ground. But the simple autopilots (think an old Cessna) don't even try to avoid the ground for you. If you set it and forget it, you may find yourself dead on a mountainside.

You can absolutely crash a modern plane by entering altitude 0. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587

There are runways below sea level.

And low pressure zones.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#349

Post by hef19898 » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:56 AM UTC

sytelus wrote: post #254

Tesla's blog post: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/update-last-week’s-accident the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider Looks like sensors failed to see concrete divider in nice sunny weather and car slammed in to it at 70mph. Driver was obviously over confident on system's a…

Regarding the second paragraph from Tesla the interesting numbers would be fatalities per driven mile without autopilot engaged vs miles with autopilot engaged. Just being equipped with autopilot doesn't tell anything in that regard.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#350

Post by aduric » Thu, May 02, 2019, 9:56 AM UTC

aneutron wrote: post #317

neotek wrote: post #278

That's what happens when you mislead your customers into believing your self-driving technology is far more advanced than it actually is. I hope Tesla loses this case and is forced to change their bullshit marketing before more people lose their lives.

But they actually didn't. They specifically tell you it is NOT a fully autonomous autopilot and that's it's more of an advanced cruise control. They also specifically tell you to KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD. If you fail to do so, you're asking for trouble. It is unfortunate the guy haf kids that will now grow up orphans, but judging from the information I've read in the Tesla blog post, it is clear that he was in the…

So why call it 'autopilot'? Seems like bullshit marketing to me. The first association we make when we hear that term is hands-off, not 'advanced cruise control'. They're specifically using that terminology to sell their products and now they're paying the price.