Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#181

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 02, 2019, 3:40 AM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #156

zaroth wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Tesla driver, I look out the windows when operating my motor vehicle. If my car crashes on AutoPilot or otherwise, it’s my fault. When Tesla tells me I can stop looking while the car drives, instead of how they currently do it where it constantly reminds me to be alert, then I might change my position. Until then it is abundantly clear to every single Tesla driver, who exactly is responsible for controlling the…

As a Tesla driver, I look out the windows when operating my motor vehicle. If my car crashes on AutoPilot or otherwise, it’s my fault. Legally, both you and Tesla are at fault if the car crashes. You, for not maintaining full control of the car. And Tesla, for developing the AutoPilot system which directly caused the crash. In this context, Tesla is the "proximate cause* of the crash, so their liability generally wou…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#182

Post by lwansbrough » Thu, May 02, 2019, 3:40 AM UTC

carlivar wrote: post #52

saagarjha wrote: post #19

The problem with Tesla's "Autopilot" is that it's marketed heavily as just that: autopilot. It's good enough to work that way 99% of the time, too, which is a recipe for disaster: things that work 99% of the time but have the potential to fail catastrophically often get glossed over by humans because it's hard to keep paying attention to something that rarely fails.

This is exactly why Waymo and Cruise and such believe autonomy Level 3 or so is utterly dangerous and have intentionally skipped it entirely.

Telsa's bet, and I think it's a really fair one, is that if humans only need two eyes to navigate as well as we do, a car with >2 eyes could eventually be as good or better than humans.

On the other hand, humans do not have lidar systems in their head, and so lidar is the real unproven technology. It's also clear that lidar is especially lacking in situations which require seeing longer distances (like say, driving!)

To be fair, lidar is winning in terms of problems vs. miles driven, but I believe their advancement will plateau far sooner (and perhaps permanently) than computer vision based systems.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#183

Post by unityByFreedom » Thu, May 02, 2019, 3:41 AM UTC

carlivar wrote: post #52

saagarjha wrote: post #19

The problem with Tesla's "Autopilot" is that it's marketed heavily as just that: autopilot. It's good enough to work that way 99% of the time, too, which is a recipe for disaster: things that work 99% of the time but have the potential to fail catastrophically often get glossed over by humans because it's hard to keep paying attention to something that rarely fails.

This is exactly why Waymo and Cruise and such believe autonomy Level 3 or so is utterly dangerous and have intentionally skipped it entirely.

I wonder if AP is really 2x safer as Musk claims. Highway driving is already significantly safer per mile than local roads,

> The grim statistics provided by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration also show that drivers on rural roads die at a rate 2.5 times higher per mile traveled than on urban highways. Urban drivers travel twice as many miles but suffer close to half the fatal accidents. [1]

Could this explain away Musk's AP safety claims, given that it's mostly used on highways?

[1] https://www.npr.org/2009/11/29/120716625/the-deadliest-roads...

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#184

Post by lawnchair_larry » Thu, May 02, 2019, 3:43 AM UTC

linsomniac wrote: post #167

saagarjha wrote: post #19

The problem with Tesla's "Autopilot" is that it's marketed heavily as just that: autopilot. It's good enough to work that way 99% of the time, too, which is a recipe for disaster: things that work 99% of the time but have the potential to fail catastrophically often get glossed over by humans because it's hard to keep paying attention to something that rarely fails.

That's all very true, but one interesting thing is that the driver in this case knew that at this location the autopilot was 100% likely to fail. I believe I read he had even reported it several times to Tesla Service and his family. The lane markers in this area, based on video I watched of it years ago, are pretty bad, IIRC. Like, a human could have problems following the markers bad. As evidence to support this I'…

Except he won’t argue that because he is dead. Which, in itself, is the best counter argument to your conclusion that he knew what he was doing and allowed it to happen intentionally. Unless you’re also theorizing that he chose to commit suicide using one of the most creative methods he could, while making Tesla take the blame. It’s not impossible I suppose, but it doesn’t seem like the most reasonable conclusion.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#185

Post by zaroth » Thu, May 02, 2019, 3:44 AM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #156

zaroth wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Tesla driver, I look out the windows when operating my motor vehicle. If my car crashes on AutoPilot or otherwise, it’s my fault. When Tesla tells me I can stop looking while the car drives, instead of how they currently do it where it constantly reminds me to be alert, then I might change my position. Until then it is abundantly clear to every single Tesla driver, who exactly is responsible for controlling the…

As a Tesla driver, I look out the windows when operating my motor vehicle. If my car crashes on AutoPilot or otherwise, it’s my fault. Legally, both you and Tesla are at fault if the car crashes. You, for not maintaining full control of the car. And Tesla, for developing the AutoPilot system which directly caused the crash. In this context, Tesla is the "proximate cause* of the crash, so their liability generally wou…

You’re the lawyer. Is there case law to support this? I ask not to mean “citation required” but because I would be very interested to read it.

I don’t know if and how much Tesla can disclaim responsibility for the crash based on warnings written into the UI and user manual and TOS.

For example, I’m fairly certain that autopilot systems on boats do not absolve the Skipper of liability if a boat crashes, and suing a small craft autopilot systems manufacture for maintaining (or not maintaining) a set course into a collision would be laughable.

I would also say, if we can’t ship self-driving capabilities without some way of managing and constraining the inherent liability, we will miss out on saving 10s of thousands of lives just because we can not save all the lives.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#186

Post by 11thEarlOfMar » Thu, May 02, 2019, 3:45 AM UTC

The crux of the issue will be that autonomous capabilities will/have made cars overall safer. Tesla will be able to cite data and circumstances where the safety features saved lives, and likely more times than lives were lost.

The problem is that the lives that are lost when the safety features fail are different lives than would have been lost without it at all. The families of those killed in this manner will have their day in court.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#187

Post by zaroth » Thu, May 02, 2019, 3:47 AM UTC

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #140

zaroth wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These AEB features almost universally do not trigger on stationary objects when the car is moving more than 20 or 30mph.

If you bothered to click on the Car And Driver link, you would have seen that these systems (particularly Tesla's system) work at least up to 50mph with stationary objects.

In the video, that’s 50kph (30 mph). The most advanced Volvo system decelerated but still crashes pretty hard at 80kph (50mph) when approaching a stationary vehicle decoy.

Note well, if the target was an inflatable rock or an inflatable jersey barrier parallel with the direction of travel, the results would be much, much worse.

In those other cars the ACC is picking up a car-like object on the sensors. A non-car-like object is designed to be ignored.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#188

Post by cududa » Thu, May 02, 2019, 3:49 AM UTC

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #186

The crux of the issue will be that autonomous capabilities will/have made cars overall safer. Tesla will be able to cite data and circumstances where the safety features saved lives, and likely more times than lives were lost. The problem is that the lives that are lost when the safety features fail are different lives than would have been lost without it at all. The families of those killed in this manner will have…

I don’t think a juries are known for valuing statistics over gut feeling, and something tells me technophobia will win here.

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#189

Post by romwell » Thu, May 02, 2019, 3:49 AM UTC

linsomniac wrote: post #167

saagarjha wrote: post #19

The problem with Tesla's "Autopilot" is that it's marketed heavily as just that: autopilot. It's good enough to work that way 99% of the time, too, which is a recipe for disaster: things that work 99% of the time but have the potential to fail catastrophically often get glossed over by humans because it's hard to keep paying attention to something that rarely fails.

That's all very true, but one interesting thing is that the driver in this case knew that at this location the autopilot was 100% likely to fail. I believe I read he had even reported it several times to Tesla Service and his family. The lane markers in this area, based on video I watched of it years ago, are pretty bad, IIRC. Like, a human could have problems following the markers bad. As evidence to support this I'…

>Like, a human could have problems following the markers bad.

The black-and-white stripes on the highway divider were good, though[1]. They are hard for humans to avoid.

That's the fundamental problem: the signage optimized for being glaring to humans is sometimes invisible to self-driving cars.

Instead of trying to teach cars to read signs not meant for them, we should install signs that are easy for cars to understand.

[1]https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/03/28/tesla-claims-highway-...

(this also shows the lack of crumple zone, but clear signage).

Re: Tesla sued in wrongful death lawsuit that alleges Autopilot caused crash

#190

Post by lawnchair_larry » Thu, May 02, 2019, 3:50 AM UTC

whenchamenia wrote: post #177

natch wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Straight isn’t everything. Autopilot keeps you in your lane even as the road curves. With caveats. It’s beta after all.

It its "in beta" as you say, keep it on private roads until out of beta. Sincerely, everyone else.

No way. Even in beta, I’d much rather put up with roads full of autopilot Teslas than a road full of human drivers. Have you seen how people drive?