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China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

reuters.com

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Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#21

Post by darawk »

ilaksh wrote: post #17

I guess it's probably not very realistic but to me the only way to get to real security that you can count on to last is to change the whole paradigm. I mean the basic premise is that the bottom line for control is deadly force. Maybe there really is no alternative but I think it's worth mentioning that as long is that is the operating mode, there is no real security for human life. You can certainly have extended pe…

You can't change that paradigm. Everything ultimately cashes out in force, unless you want to invent a new universe with new physics or something.

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#22

Post by kodz4 »

ilaksh wrote: post #17

I guess it's probably not very realistic but to me the only way to get to real security that you can count on to last is to change the whole paradigm. I mean the basic premise is that the bottom line for control is deadly force. Maybe there really is no alternative but I think it's worth mentioning that as long is that is the operating mode, there is no real security for human life. You can certainly have extended pe…

Well Europe has figured out how to redirect all that energy into football so other paradigms are possible. Before that discovery they spent most of history killing each other every 3 months or so.

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#23

Post by ShorsHammer »

cududa wrote: post #12
vondur wrote: post #9

The US still has a huge Navy compared to China, and far more allies in the region than China does. In theory, we just have to make more advanced weapon technology available to some our allies in the region. I'd support helping India modernize their military with equipment, training and joint exercises.

Given their current tensions with Pakistan, that seems like a horrific idea

Yeah I have no idea how anyone thinks that would be a good thing. You only have to watch the hyper-nationalism and blowing up satellites in LEO in the lead up to this election, as the country. Of all the places on Earth where nuclear weapons would be ever used again it's a top contender.

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#24

Post by stcredzero »

ilaksh wrote: post #17

I guess it's probably not very realistic but to me the only way to get to real security that you can count on to last is to change the whole paradigm. I mean the basic premise is that the bottom line for control is deadly force. Maybe there really is no alternative but I think it's worth mentioning that as long is that is the operating mode, there is no real security for human life. You can certainly have extended pe…

the basic premise is that the bottom line for control is deadly force

Yes. That's actually enshrined in international law. Sovereignty is pretty much defined as whomever has enough force in that place to get their way.

the international operating mode is that serious conflicts are resolved with machines designed to destroy property and lives

CGP Grey puts it this way: Sovereignty == Bigger Army Diplomacy.

Actually that's not quite right. Sovereignty == Better Armed Forces with Sustainable Logistics Diplomacy.

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#25

Post by empath75 »

stcredzero wrote: post #19
vondur wrote: post #9

The US still has a huge Navy compared to China, and far more allies in the region than China does. In theory, we just have to make more advanced weapon technology available to some our allies in the region. I'd support helping India modernize their military with equipment, training and joint exercises.

The US still has a huge Navy compared to China, and far more allies in the region than China does. This might well change if China takes back Taiwan. If that happens, China could engineer a situation where it's better for the local powers to cozy up to China, than to take the side of the distant US. Even though the US, as a distant hegemon, is the better option, the US might not have the power to keep China at bay an…

Just in a practical global stability sense it would probably be best if China re assumed its historical role as regional hegemon.

I actually think it would be better for the us to unburden ourselves of the need to provide security for Taiwan, japan and Korea, as long as we continue to have trade agreements.

I realize that their system of government isn’t great and violates human rights on a massive scale, but in terms of foreign policy and the actual usage of their military for the past several decades, they’ve been a lot more reasonable and done far less damage than the us has.

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#26

Post by stcredzero »

darawk wrote: post #21
ilaksh wrote: post #17

I guess it's probably not very realistic but to me the only way to get to real security that you can count on to last is to change the whole paradigm. I mean the basic premise is that the bottom line for control is deadly force. Maybe there really is no alternative but I think it's worth mentioning that as long is that is the operating mode, there is no real security for human life. You can certainly have extended pe…

You can't change that paradigm. Everything ultimately cashes out in force, unless you want to invent a new universe with new physics or something.

What usually happens nowadays, is that technology greatly increases the amount of force which can be cashed out for. The start of the Nuclear age was literally applying a "new" (heretofore not yet applied to war) physics.

Applying space forces actively to war could well be applying a new part of the universe to war. (Airplanes and submarines were also this.)

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#27

Post by F-35 »

godzillabrennus wrote: post #3

America needs more advancements but political nonsense has put the money into I’ll fated programs like the F:35.

Thing is, it’s funny to me that you imagine the money declared under fighter jet programs is actually getting spent on fighter jets. Getting emotional about government spending means you believe the government tells you the truth, which they do not.

The money disappears. The line items show up on paper. Flak shows up in the news, about waste, about inefficiency. But there’s no way the shit they say they waste money on is the shit they really waste money on.

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#28

Post by stcredzero »

empath75 wrote: post #25
stcredzero wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US still has a huge Navy compared to China, and far more allies in the region than China does. This might well change if China takes back Taiwan. If that happens, China could engineer a situation where it's better for the local powers to cozy up to China, than to take the side of the distant US. Even though the US, as a distant hegemon, is the better option, the US might not have the power to keep China at bay an…

Just in a practical global stability sense it would probably be best if China re assumed its historical role as regional hegemon. I actually think it would be better for the us to unburden ourselves of the need to provide security for Taiwan, japan and Korea, as long as we continue to have trade agreements. I realize that their system of government isn’t great and violates human rights on a massive scale, but in term…

I realize that their system of government isn’t great and violates human rights on a massive scale, but in terms of foreign policy and the actual usage of their military for the past several decades, they’ve been a lot more reasonable and done far less damage than the us has.

Basically, because the US geopolitical strategy has kept them in check. Give them access to the world's oceans and the global stage to play in, and one might well see a lot more of that not-so-great stuff from China.

Re: China’s vast fleet is tipping the balance in the Pacific

#29

Post by woodandsteel »

I don't like this development but I don't see what can be done to counter it in the long run. For over two thousand years China dominated East Asia. The American dominance since the end of WWII was due to China being flat on its back, but now that China is industrializing, it seems destined to come to an end. That's because China has a far larger population, and this is its home waters.
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