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Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

nintendolife.com

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Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#181

Post by krageon »

chii wrote: post #179
krageon wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that they are so strict in a very real way keeps a lot of crapware and annoyances (that I do see on other platforms, more or less linearly following the openness) off of the marketplace. I go from liking it to hating it more or less on a yearly cycle, but I have never hated it enough to stop owning their devices. When I want something with solid gameplay that doesn't just sell because the graphics are so goo…

The quality of software available on the nintendo store has nothing to do with how locked down the hardware is! Of course nintendo (or any other platform holder) would like you to believe otherwise, because by controlling the platform, they are able to maximize the profit extraction. Hardware lockdown and quality of the curated store has nothing to do with each other. Nintendo can (and should) continue to curate thei…

> The quality of software available on the nintendo store has nothing to do with how locked down the hardware is!

You say this and there was certainly a time when I would have agreed with you. Sadly, the reality doesn't match that belief so I no longer think that is the case.

Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#182

Post by philpem »

failrate wrote: post #168
philpem wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers who make games for Windows PCs tend to fill them with so many "DRM" and "anti-cheat" measures that they might as well just sell them as a prebaked rootkit.

DRM is typically sold by a third party vendor. It is typically not effective against software pirates. You are overstating its use, however.

I was thinking of the Sony rootkit, and the Starforce and VAC exploits.

Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#183

Post by jplayer01 »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #88
jplayer01 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which was then used to enable privilege escalation in an exploit. https://mrnbayoh.github.io/basicsploit/ Nintendo is doing far more to prevent piracy and homebrew than they ever have before. It's no surprise to anybody who's familiar with this stuff that they aren't okay with arbitrary code execution, especially if none of the interpreter code was vetted/audited by anybody security conscious. I'm even surprised so m…

Oh, heh, I hadn't heard about that exploit! I will point out that the Switch already supports untrusted and unvetted code execution—it's called Javascript. The Nintendo Switch may appear to not have a web browser, but it pops up when you try to log into a captive portal. Without it, no one would be able to use public wifi hotspots. I will also note that Nintendo hasn't exactly done a great job at preventing piracy or…

They did make efforts to hide the browser and I assume they were constrained by the need to enable users to access captive portals. A random Ruby interpreter by some developer not part of Nintendo is not in any way necessary for them, so there's no reason for them not to take the game down. Which they did. The reason why should be obvious.

As for their efforts: They've made far more effort than they ever have before. Using homebrew or custom firmware effectively means you can't ever use that device online again (which wasn't the case for earlier consoles).

Are you suggesting that just because they've made mistakes that they would be in any way inclined to let the Ruby thing go?

Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#184

Post by politician »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #177
politician wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say potato, I say potato.

It's a significant distinction, in this case! Nintendo did not intentionally build a way to create and execute arbitrary code in Super Mario World. It happens as a consequence of various unintentional bugs. The existence of this phenomenon does not tell us anything about what Nintendo is "okay" with on their platforms, because it wasn't created purposefully. If Super Mario World contained a "code editor", that would…

Fair enough.

Nintendo doesn't write code, people do; we can't say for sure this wasn't intentional. We don't know whether a developer left a trail of backdoors as a protest against Nintendo's well-known policy of tight editorial control of game developers, for example.

However, given the existence of this editorial policy, it's reasonable that they did not intend to include these backdoors in Super Mario World. Perhaps they didn't claw back this title because these backdoors were not known until recently.

Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#186

Post by Wowfunhappy »

politician wrote: post #184
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a significant distinction, in this case! Nintendo did not intentionally build a way to create and execute arbitrary code in Super Mario World. It happens as a consequence of various unintentional bugs. The existence of this phenomenon does not tell us anything about what Nintendo is "okay" with on their platforms, because it wasn't created purposefully. If Super Mario World contained a "code editor", that would…

Fair enough. Nintendo doesn't write code, people do; we can't say for sure this wasn't intentional. We don't know whether a developer left a trail of backdoors as a protest against Nintendo's well-known policy of tight editorial control of game developers, for example. However, given the existence of this editorial policy, it's reasonable that they did not intend to include these backdoors in Super Mario World. Perha…

> Nintendo doesn't write code, people do

This is fair, too. However, if you read about how these particular glitches worked, I find it extremely hard to believe that they would be implemented on purpose.

They're a consequence of a series of run-of-the-mill memory errors across the game's code. There would have needed to be a group of developers conspiring to make this possible... and for what? So a very dedicated player can spend hours painstakingly inputting a flappy bird game that will be lost when the system is turned off?

Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#187

Post by Wowfunhappy »

jplayer01 wrote: post #183
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, heh, I hadn't heard about that exploit! I will point out that the Switch already supports untrusted and unvetted code execution—it's called Javascript. The Nintendo Switch may appear to not have a web browser, but it pops up when you try to log into a captive portal. Without it, no one would be able to use public wifi hotspots. I will also note that Nintendo hasn't exactly done a great job at preventing piracy or…

They did make efforts to hide the browser and I assume they were constrained by the need to enable users to access captive portals. A random Ruby interpreter by some developer not part of Nintendo is not in any way necessary for them, so there's no reason for them not to take the game down. Which they did. The reason why should be obvious. As for their efforts: They've made far more effort than they ever have before.…

> Are you suggesting that just because they've made mistakes that they would be in any way inclined to let the Ruby thing go?

I didn't mean to suggest that! Sneaking a Ruby interpreter into a game without telling Nintendo was stupid, and Nintendo's response was entirely logical and acceptable.

However, if Nintendo had known about the Ruby interpreter and had reviewed it beforehand, but denied it anyway... well, I still wouldn't find that particularly scandalous, but I would say it's a bit of a dumb precaution on a device with a Javascript engine.

And if Nintendo is hiding the web browser on security grounds, that's dumb too! Who cares if the browser is hidden—as long as it's accessible, the people who'd use it to hack their consoles will jump through whatever hoops are necessary. Making the browser hard to open only hurts regular users.

I find it more likely that the browser is hidden because it's too buggy and unstable for widespread use. I've played with it, and it likes to crash. A lot.

Re: Indie Game Removed from Switch After Dev Reveals It Has a Hidden Code Editor

#188

Post by failrate »

philpem wrote: post #182
failrate wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DRM is typically sold by a third party vendor. It is typically not effective against software pirates. You are overstating its use, however.

I was thinking of the Sony rootkit, and the Starforce and VAC exploits.

The Sony toolkit debacle was its own thing. In addition, that rootkit was on music CDs.

I worked for a game division of Sony at the time, and we were furious at the mothership for that incident.

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