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Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

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Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#181

this kind of fraud is absolutely rampant in the automotive industry for example. Speaking from experience as an engine mechanic, Ive had to replace transmission parts for a certain well-known japanese SUV maker. They also make a "luxury" version of this SUV with more horsepower and a turbocharger setup. The transmissions however are virtually identical with a very major exception: the M5PVL transmission gear for the…

If you’re engineering to protect against fraud then maybe you would make them different sizes? Or only make one kind of part?

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can't charge a "person" with a crime if that "person" isn't there to defend themselves Individuals charged with crimes are defended by attorneys without visibly participating in their criminal trials all the time. I can't imagine a criminal conviction of a corporation would dissolve the entity. No need to dissolve it, simply place it under the same kind of restrictions that someone in prison is placed under - no…

> Individuals charged with crimes are defended by attorneys without visibly participating in their criminal trials all the time. Lack of visible participation is far from lack of participation. In the US due process requires the defendant's presence to commence a criminal trial. Once charges have been brought the defendant has a right (that can in some circumstances be waived) to attend and participate in every stage…

I feel like if we were scaling this to a corporation then all shareholders would potentially have a right to be present for the trial? There might (terribly) be some sane precedent set prior to the 13th amendment regarding the rights of slave owners to be present at trial for their slaves - I'm 100% anti-slavery but it is the last instance I'm aware of that might yield light on what rights legal persons who partially own other legal persons who have been charged with a crime have.

Edited - reworded "persons" to "legal persons" in a few places.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#183
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need to build with high-quality American fakes, not high-quality Chinese fakes! It's entirely possible that American manufacturers are forced to compromise quality like that due to the competitive pressure of low-cost Chinese fakes.

Mo question, Chinese fakes and theft are an enormous problem, and I'll be among the first to speak against it. However, no one was forced to compromise quality. One can always step away from that business or project, stating that if they cannot do it right (or cannot do it right at the demanded cost structure), they will not do it. I've stepped away from deals for the same reason -- I'm not going to compromise qualit…

You and the parent are saying the same thing. You're just mincing the word "force". You're insisting on using it in a different figurative sense than the parent, but the parent's meaning is perfectly clear.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#184

this kind of fraud is absolutely rampant in the automotive industry for example. Speaking from experience as an engine mechanic, Ive had to replace transmission parts for a certain well-known japanese SUV maker. They also make a "luxury" version of this SUV with more horsepower and a turbocharger setup. The transmissions however are virtually identical with a very major exception: the M5PVL transmission gear for the…

I'm scratching my head as to the possible identity of the mystery SUV. Luxury SUV, Japanese, uses a turbo... maybe the Acura RDX? And the transmission housing is not stout enough to contain gear shrapnel?

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest questions: 1. Is there any compelling evidence that this incident is attributable to "free market economics"? It seems equally possible that it's attributable to notoriously poor incentive structures in government agencies. In my view it seems most likely that it's neither, in this particular case. 2. Is there evidence that there is a "recent trend towards rampant free market economics and libertarianism"? Aga…

I'm not sure about your first question, but for your second question the evidence is everywhere. My news feed is filled with multiple articles per day about cutting regulations on just about everything, but mostly impacting the environment, or social justice issues: https://www.google.com/search?q=deregulate&tbm=nws Part of the issue is geographic. Being born and raised in Idaho, I've found myself surrounded by liber…

I don't know man. That sounds more like you're in a media bubble than it sounds indicative of some broader trend. The media report the exceptional, not the norm. It doesn't mean you're wrong, but just that this evidence is about as weak as it gets.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#186

this kind of fraud is absolutely rampant in the automotive industry for example. Speaking from experience as an engine mechanic, Ive had to replace transmission parts for a certain well-known japanese SUV maker. They also make a "luxury" version of this SUV with more horsepower and a turbocharger setup. The transmissions however are virtually identical with a very major exception: the M5PVL transmission gear for the…

If you’re engineering to protect against fraud then maybe you would make them different sizes? Or only make one kind of part?

That would be my first instinct as well. Atleast when I interned metallworking, the supervisor did have atleast one lesson where they talked about making sure components don't fit into places they shouldn't. If two gears on a machine have different requirements then they should be made to not fit into eachother's places. It makes maintenance easier since there is only 1 correct way to build the machine from any set of spare parts.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#187
post #184

this kind of fraud is absolutely rampant in the automotive industry for example. Speaking from experience as an engine mechanic, Ive had to replace transmission parts for a certain well-known japanese SUV maker. They also make a "luxury" version of this SUV with more horsepower and a turbocharger setup. The transmissions however are virtually identical with a very major exception: the M5PVL transmission gear for the…

I'm scratching my head as to the possible identity of the mystery SUV. Luxury SUV, Japanese, uses a turbo... maybe the Acura RDX? And the transmission housing is not stout enough to contain gear shrapnel?

Toyota / Lexus ?

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#188
post #22
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Destruction of $700m property due to negligence certainly seems jailworthy to me. At the very least, this company should be paying a fine which actually recovers the damages.

Last time I was up for jury duty, I was asked to consider a sentence of up to 20 years in prison for the crime of receiving a stolen Xbox.

Was it in the USA? I'm surprised there would be a jury on a theft case. Where I am from, I heard jury are limited to criminal courts where the minimal case is something like manslaughter.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#189
post #99
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it’s shocking nobody is going to jail in relation to a fraud guilty plea. They are though. From the justice.gov article: "Dennis Balius, the SPI testing lab supervisor, led a scheme to alter tests within SPI’s computerized systems and provide false certifications with the altered results to customers. Balius also instructed employees to violate other testing standards, such as increasing the speed of the testing ma…

>because it isn't a human. This is especially interesting in the context of corporate personhood[1]. You can't send a corporation to jail, but you can disband it entirely, or prevent it from operating. A lot of the practical solutions try to leave badly behaving company operating, though, since if we shut them down there is a lot of collateral damage in the form of lost productivity in the economy and lost jobs. IANA…

In the context of insolvency, a less culpable state, needless asset and job wastage was addressed for railroads by barring liquidation while displacing management with a board of trustees and stripping owners of their equity and voting power.

I'm not sure why equity holders of malfeasant corporations having criminal culpability should fare better than equity holders of corporations that suffer misfortune. The distinction creates a moral hazard.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#190
post #187
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm scratching my head as to the possible identity of the mystery SUV. Luxury SUV, Japanese, uses a turbo... maybe the Acura RDX? And the transmission housing is not stout enough to contain gear shrapnel?

Toyota / Lexus ?

He's referring to Toyota. They are globally recalling Toyota Corollas for failing torque converters. https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/toyota-2019-corolla-hatch...

Clearly Toyota didn't know it was happening in their supply chain, but now they do.

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