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Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

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Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this analysis pretty much ancap-complete? All sorts of things communities have agreed to forbid impinge in some way on individual rights.

> Isn't this analysis pretty much ancap-complete? That kind of depends on whether you agree with ancaps on the scope and definition of individual rights; it is, certainly, ancap-consistent.

Is there another rebuttal to Rayiner you might have that would be persuasive to someone who is not sympathetic to ancap philosophy?

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#162
You are kidding me, right? Years of hard work of scientists are lost. The scientific loss is huge if not quantifiable. You defraud the best and richest space research agency on earth for years. And you are getting away with just paying a fine?

A justice system where the Rich pays their way out, and only the Poor get punished.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest questions: 1. Is there any compelling evidence that this incident is attributable to "free market economics"? It seems equally possible that it's attributable to notoriously poor incentive structures in government agencies. In my view it seems most likely that it's neither, in this particular case. 2. Is there evidence that there is a "recent trend towards rampant free market economics and libertarianism"? Aga…

I'm not sure about your first question, but for your second question the evidence is everywhere. My news feed is filled with multiple articles per day about cutting regulations on just about everything, but mostly impacting the environment, or social justice issues: https://www.google.com/search?q=deregulate&tbm=nws Part of the issue is geographic. Being born and raised in Idaho, I've found myself surrounded by liber…

Do you really think Google search trends are indicitive of "recent trends" on political leanings on regulation?

If so, you might be interested to see that there is appears to actually be a relative swing toward regulation: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=r...

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#165
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I was up for jury duty, I was asked to consider a sentence of up to 20 years in prison for the crime of receiving a stolen Xbox.

Was that under a three strikes law?

No, that’s just the maximum punishment prescribed for felony receiving stolen property.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#166
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rationale for not pursuing the company for the full $700 million dollars lost escapes me Satellites are usually insured. (Not sure about NASA protocol, though.) If that’s the case, the insurer will sue. Shareholder lawsuits will also, naturally, follow, as will suits from all the other customers. Agree, though, that it’s shocking nobody is going to jail in relation to a fraud guilty plea.

> it’s shocking nobody is going to jail in relation to a fraud guilty plea. They are though. From the justice.gov article: "Dennis Balius, the SPI testing lab supervisor, led a scheme to alter tests within SPI’s computerized systems and provide false certifications with the altered results to customers. Balius also instructed employees to violate other testing standards, such as increasing the speed of the testing ma…

The Supreme Court disagrees: companies are people, and as so have all the rights of them. That means they should be subject to the same penalties: all members of the executive management should be in jail. Until that happens there’s no reason for them to stop. And it needs to be all so that other executives ensure that no one is breaking the law.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#167
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>because it isn't a human. This is especially interesting in the context of corporate personhood[1]. You can't send a corporation to jail, but you can disband it entirely, or prevent it from operating. A lot of the practical solutions try to leave badly behaving company operating, though, since if we shut them down there is a lot of collateral damage in the form of lost productivity in the economy and lost jobs. IANA…

> You can't send a corporation to jail, but you can disband it entirely, or prevent it from operating Just "disbanding" a corporation would be pointless. The shareholders (most likely, someone in senior management) could just purchase back (or replicate) the assets and keep going. The proper ways to "kill" companies include revoking their licenses (see Arthur Anderson), fining them into bankruptcy and possibly liquid…

All of the things you mentioned above are less penalizing then disbanding a corporation and seizing their outstanding assets, revoking licenses in particular - the shareholders and employees of the company could just re-incorporate under a different name and carry on with business as usual - I'd call this "Pulling a Blackwater" but this happens extremely frequently across a lot of sectors.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#169
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>because it isn't a human. This is especially interesting in the context of corporate personhood[1]. You can't send a corporation to jail, but you can disband it entirely, or prevent it from operating. A lot of the practical solutions try to leave badly behaving company operating, though, since if we shut them down there is a lot of collateral damage in the form of lost productivity in the economy and lost jobs. IANA…

> As I understand it, if a company actually goes to trial and is convicted, they are not allowed to operate anymore, hence the plea deals and fines. You know, I am a lawyer (a corporate one who freelances as a white collar crime journalist at that!) and I don't even know how this would work. I can't even think of a single criminal case against a corporation that I've reported on that went to trial. It just doesn't re…

Corporations are frequently enough charged with crimes to necessitate the existence of corporate lawyers (i.e. you). The discussion of whether corporate manslaughter should be a thing was never one that hinged on whether it would be unconstitutional...

Just generally, I'm not buying this

> After all, you can't charge a "person" with a crime if that "person" isn't there to defend themselves.

especially since people can be charged with crimes for failing to show up for court dates and, while I'm not certain about the US legal system, plenty of war crime charges have been formally with the charged party in absentia.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#170
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need to build with high-quality American fakes, not high-quality Chinese fakes! It's entirely possible that American manufacturers are forced to compromise quality like that due to the competitive pressure of low-cost Chinese fakes.

Mo question, Chinese fakes and theft are an enormous problem, and I'll be among the first to speak against it. However, no one was forced to compromise quality. One can always step away from that business or project, stating that if they cannot do it right (or cannot do it right at the demanded cost structure), they will not do it. I've stepped away from deals for the same reason -- I'm not going to compromise qualit…

> One can always step away from that business or project, stating that if they cannot do it right (or cannot do it right at the demanded cost structure), they will not do it.

Do that too much, and you may just go out of business yourself (or have to radically reduce operations).

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