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Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

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Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#151

Post by joering2 »

gpm wrote: post #40
_red wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely inaccurate. Corporate liability protection only extends to civil financial issues, any real property crimes (ie. fraud, murder, etc) 'pierces the corporate veil' and ultimately are filed against the people who performed it.

According to other comments here the company plead guilty to (criminal) fraud. So no it is not completely inaccurate.

I think you missed the point. The "company" can plead anything you want to because noone has ever put a "company" behind the bars. "Companies" are fictitious entities.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#152

Post by T-A »

jve wrote: post #93

SpaceX also had failed a mission due to a 3rd party strut failing the spec. > The strut that we believe failed was designed and material certified to handle 10,000 lbs of force, but failed at 2,000 lbs, a five-fold difference. https://www.spacex.com/news/2015/07/20/crs-7-investigation-u...

A closer analogy was the Proton launch failure and subsequent suspension of launches in 2017, after it turned out that Voronezh Mechanical Plant had switched materials in the engines and falsified the documentation.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/01/russia-recalling-doz...

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#153

Post by icelancer »

CharlesColeman wrote: post #131
gnode wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be that actually fully stressing the parts is avoided, as it may risk weakening the part. I've heard of various non destructive testing methods being used to check the integrity of metals in aerospace, such as ultrasound and radiography. This may well be enough if the part is actually made of what it's supposed to be.

> It may be that actually fully stressing the parts is avoided, as it may risk weakening the part. Couldn't they just buy an extra and destructively test that?

The failures may not be normally distributed amongst samples.

A similar issue stopped NASA from perfectly end-to-end testing the LEV before the moon landing.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#154

Post by m-p-3 »

pseudolus wrote: post #24
wlkr wrote: post #11

The linked DOJ report has far more detail [0]. On the penalties themselves: According to court documents, SPI has agreed to plead guilty to one count of mail fraud, and SEI has entered into a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) in connection with a criminal information filed today charging the company with mail fraud. As part of the plea agreement, SPI has agreed to pay $34.1 million in combined restitution to NASA,…

The deferred prosecution agreement essentially means that as long as the SEI adheres to the financial terms of the plea agreement the government will eventually drop the charges [0]. That's an amazing deal in its generosity and I'm sure that the financial penalties levied are outweighed by the financial gain realized over the years of their fraudulent activity. The rationale for not pursuing the company for the full…

To me, DPAs looks like a legal way to allow corruption to run without real penalties.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#155

Post by gnode »

CharlesColeman wrote: post #131
gnode wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be that actually fully stressing the parts is avoided, as it may risk weakening the part. I've heard of various non destructive testing methods being used to check the integrity of metals in aerospace, such as ultrasound and radiography. This may well be enough if the part is actually made of what it's supposed to be.

> It may be that actually fully stressing the parts is avoided, as it may risk weakening the part. Couldn't they just buy an extra and destructively test that?

Maybe the reason they didn't is that doing so is expensive, should have already been done by the supplier, this was for an unmanned mission (which have significantly looser safety requirements), which was insured (I assume), and costs to some extent recoverable by lawsuits.

According to the DoJ article: "the replacement cost of frangible joints provided to the MDA that included SPI extrusions is approximately $15.3 million, and NASA incurred approximately $9 million in investigative and other costs to determine the impact of SPI extrusions on NASA operations."

For economic reasons, some compromise needs to be reached between assurance and insurance.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#156

Post by tptacek »

dragonwriter wrote: post #148
rayiner wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, this shouldn't be a "sometimes" thing, it should be a "never" thing. You get convicted for drugs, regardless of how much, and your life is forever changed. Communities have the right to declare certain things unacceptable and police their citizens accordingly. The regulation of vice and harmful substances is one of the core functions of state and local governments. In a country of 330 million people, that me…

> Communities have the right to declare certain things unacceptable and police their citizens accordingly. No, they don't; communities don't have rights, individuals do. Communities have the legitimate power to do what you describe so long as no individual rights are violated . > The regulation of vice and harmful substances is one of the core functions of state and local governments. No, it's not. It may in some cas…

Isn't this analysis pretty much ancap-complete? All sorts of things communities have agreed to forbid impinge in some way on individual rights.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#157

Post by tptacek »

dctoedt wrote: post #76
rayiner wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, this shouldn't be a "sometimes" thing, it should be a "never" thing. You get convicted for drugs, regardless of how much, and your life is forever changed. Communities have the right to declare certain things unacceptable and police their citizens accordingly. The regulation of vice and harmful substances is one of the core functions of state and local governments. In a country of 330 million people, that me…

> But the self-determination of communities is a more fundamental right than the right to consume whatever substances you want. Pretty sweeping statement there. What if a majority of a "community" decides its residents shouldn't eat meat?

You mean like how most of the US has a de facto ban on horse meat consumption, despite the fact that horses are (apparently) delicious?

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#158

Post by fencepost »

elliekelly wrote: post #126
abakker wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>because it isn't a human. This is especially interesting in the context of corporate personhood[1]. You can't send a corporation to jail, but you can disband it entirely, or prevent it from operating. A lot of the practical solutions try to leave badly behaving company operating, though, since if we shut them down there is a lot of collateral damage in the form of lost productivity in the economy and lost jobs. IANA…

> As I understand it, if a company actually goes to trial and is convicted, they are not allowed to operate anymore, hence the plea deals and fines. You know, I am a lawyer (a corporate one who freelances as a white collar crime journalist at that!) and I don't even know how this would work. I can't even think of a single criminal case against a corporation that I've reported on that went to trial. It just doesn't re…

you can't charge a "person" with a crime if that "person" isn't there to defend themselves

Individuals charged with crimes are defended by attorneys without visibly participating in their criminal trials all the time.

I can't imagine a criminal conviction of a corporation would dissolve the entity.

No need to dissolve it, simply place it under the same kind of restrictions that someone in prison is placed under - no direct financial activity, severely curtailed communications, etc.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#159

Post by toss1 »

CharlesColeman wrote: post #127
jahabrewer wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to build with high-quality American fakes, not high-quality Chinese fakes!

> We need to build with high-quality American fakes, not high-quality Chinese fakes! It's entirely possible that American manufacturers are forced to compromise quality like that due to the competitive pressure of low-cost Chinese fakes.

Mo question, Chinese fakes and theft are an enormous problem, and I'll be among the first to speak against it.

However, no one was forced to compromise quality.

One can always step away from that business or project, stating that if they cannot do it right (or cannot do it right at the demanded cost structure), they will not do it.

I've stepped away from deals for the same reason -- I'm not going to compromise quality and performance to compete with lesser Chinese junk at their prices. Moreover, it is a losing game, as there are a billion of them, and producing cheap low-quality stuff is what they are best at (and in some cases they are rising above that).

They fell to the temptation to compete with the inferior grade materials by providing inferior grade materials with false test results, but they were not forced to do so.

Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure

#160

Post by dragonwriter »

tptacek wrote: post #156
dragonwriter wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Communities have the right to declare certain things unacceptable and police their citizens accordingly. No, they don't; communities don't have rights, individuals do. Communities have the legitimate power to do what you describe so long as no individual rights are violated . > The regulation of vice and harmful substances is one of the core functions of state and local governments. No, it's not. It may in some cas…

Isn't this analysis pretty much ancap-complete? All sorts of things communities have agreed to forbid impinge in some way on individual rights.

> Isn't this analysis pretty much ancap-complete?

That kind of depends on whether you agree with ancaps on the scope and definition of individual rights; it is, certainly, ancap-consistent.

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