Some relevant Wikipedia links that add color to the lost vehicles:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur-C
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbiting_Carbon_Observatory
Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
21–30 of 231 posts
Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m not suggesting prison but some kind of charge, even if it’s a misdemeanor, is needed. Whoever faked the test result needs a record that would hopefully follow them. Would you rather hire someone who was busted with a small amount of drugs or someone who faked test results for NASA?
Destruction of $700m property due to negligence certainly seems jailworthy to me. At the very least, this company should be paying a fine which actually recovers the damages.
Last time I was up for jury duty, I was asked to consider a sentence of up to 20 years in prison for the crime of receiving a stolen Xbox.
Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#23It's amazing how companies in the US can cause a billion in damage, wasting years of highly talented people, put climate science years behind, and get a slap on the wrist. Yet, some kid carries a few grams of weed and goes to jail or gets killed by the cops.
Both of your assertions are exaggerations. 1) It is far from certain that the falsified test results "cause[d] a billion in damage." Press releases about settlements are not court judgments. At trial, the government would have to prove "but-for causation." For one of the failures, for example, the government would have to prove that the launch vehicle's faring would have opened fully had the aluminum met specificatio…
> It's not typical for "kid[s]" to be put in prison for carrying "a few grams of weed." It might happen sometimes (in a country of 330 million people, everything that can happen will happen sometimes) but it's not typical.
First, this shouldn't be a "sometimes" thing, it should be a "never" thing. You get convicted for drugs, regardless of how much, and your life is forever changed.
Second, for all the made, think about how many times police used the bullshit excuse of "I smell weed" to violate and harass citizens.
OP was right, this country's justice system is broken but it's not beyond repair. We are finally seeing changes in the political landscape that will address many long standing injustices.
Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#24The linked DOJ report has far more detail [0]. On the penalties themselves: According to court documents, SPI has agreed to plead guilty to one count of mail fraud, and SEI has entered into a deferred prosecution agreement (DPA) in connection with a criminal information filed today charging the company with mail fraud. As part of the plea agreement, SPI has agreed to pay $34.1 million in combined restitution to NASA,…
The deferred prosecution agreement essentially means that as long as the SEI adheres to the financial terms of the plea agreement the government will eventually drop the charges [0]. That's an amazing deal in its generosity and I'm sure that the financial penalties levied are outweighed by the financial gain realized over the years of their fraudulent activity. The rationale for not pursuing the company for the full $700 million dollars lost escapes me. The damages were entirely foreseeable.
Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
Both of your assertions are exaggerations. 1) It is far from certain that the falsified test results "cause[d] a billion in damage." Press releases about settlements are not court judgments. At trial, the government would have to prove "but-for causation." For one of the failures, for example, the government would have to prove that the launch vehicle's faring would have opened fully had the aluminum met specificatio…
> It's not typical for "kid[s]" to be put in prison for carrying "a few grams of weed." It might happen sometimes (in a country of 330 million people, everything that can happen will happen sometimes) but it's not typical. First, this shouldn't be a "sometimes" thing, it should be a "never" thing. You get convicted for drugs, regardless of how much, and your life is forever changed. Second, for all the made, think ab…
> First, this shouldn't be a "sometimes" thing, it should be a "never" thing. You get convicted for drugs, regardless of how much, and your life is forever changed.
Communities have the right to declare certain things unacceptable and police their citizens accordingly. The regulation of vice and harmful substances is one of the core functions of state and local governments. In a country of 330 million people, that means that "sometimes" people will exercise that right in a way that you or I think is undesirable or even unjust. But the self-determination of communities is a more fundamental right than the right to consume whatever substances you want.
Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#26It's amazing how companies in the US can cause a billion in damage, wasting years of highly talented people, put climate science years behind, and get a slap on the wrist. Yet, some kid carries a few grams of weed and goes to jail or gets killed by the cops.
Both of your assertions are exaggerations. 1) It is far from certain that the falsified test results "cause[d] a billion in damage." Press releases about settlements are not court judgments. At trial, the government would have to prove "but-for causation." For one of the failures, for example, the government would have to prove that the launch vehicle's faring would have opened fully had the aluminum met specificatio…
Far from certain doesn't make it unlikely.
I think it's far more likely that falsified test results could have caused a billion in damage. Over the course of 19 years? Substandard parts being used in the shuttle is just one data point. Who knows how many substandard parts went into other products' increased failure modes whose burdens were borne by third parties (including US and foreign citizens).
> It's not typical for "kid[s]" to be put in prison for carrying "a few grams of weed.
Maybe not where you're at.
Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
Both of your assertions are exaggerations. 1) It is far from certain that the falsified test results "cause[d] a billion in damage." Press releases about settlements are not court judgments. At trial, the government would have to prove "but-for causation." For one of the failures, for example, the government would have to prove that the launch vehicle's faring would have opened fully had the aluminum met specificatio…
Far from certain doesn't make it unlikely. I think it's far more likely that falsified test results could have caused a billion in damage. Over the course of 19 years ? Substandard parts being used in the shuttle is just one data point. Who knows how many substandard parts went into other products' increased failure modes whose burdens were borne by third parties (including US and foreign citizens). > It's not typica…
At trial, the government would have to prove that, more likely than not, specific sub-standard aluminium caused a specific launch to fail. (Sometimes, where there may be many occurrences of failures, you can create a statistical model showing that some defect caused an X% increase in failures. That doesn't seem applicable here, where there were a handful of failures that happened in different ways.)
Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#28the best thing is how the "company" (or corporation) is to blame. so none of the actual individual humans who did this is at fault here. at worst they would be fired and go to work somewhere else. which is compeletely fine. and with a fine like that, this is just a "cost of doing business" for the corporation. maybe one day terribly criminal corporations should be forcefully disbanded as punishment.
[deleted]
Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's not typical for "kid[s]" to be put in prison for carrying "a few grams of weed." It might happen sometimes (in a country of 330 million people, everything that can happen will happen sometimes) but it's not typical. First, this shouldn't be a "sometimes" thing, it should be a "never" thing. You get convicted for drugs, regardless of how much, and your life is forever changed. Second, for all the made, think ab…
> First, this shouldn't be a "sometimes" thing, it should be a "never" thing. You get convicted for drugs, regardless of how much, and your life is forever changed. Communities have the right to declare certain things unacceptable and police their citizens accordingly. The regulation of vice and harmful substances is one of the core functions of state and local governments. In a country of 330 million people, that me…
Oh please. Fuck off.
Re: Nasa Says Metals Fraud Caused $700M Satellite Failure
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m not suggesting prison but some kind of charge, even if it’s a misdemeanor, is needed. Whoever faked the test result needs a record that would hopefully follow them. Would you rather hire someone who was busted with a small amount of drugs or someone who faked test results for NASA?
Destruction of $700m property due to negligence certainly seems jailworthy to me. At the very least, this company should be paying a fine which actually recovers the damages.
That can only be done if first, it can be proven that it was poor materials that caused the failure, and two, it's only useful if the company can actually afford a fine like that.
You also have to consider what your motivation behind punishment is; is it re-education? Is it compensation of damages? Or is it to just completely bankrupt the company because Never Again? I mean in that last case, NASA and the US as a whole may find itself at a disadvantage in the aluminum industry.