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Don't shoot the messenger for telling the truth

theaustralian.com.au

61–70 of 141 posts

Re: Don't shoot the messenger for telling the truth

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Visa has since followed suit. : http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5jzXb7... The only corporate entity so far that does not have egg all over its face on this one is the French OVH which went to a judge to establish whether or not wikileaks was illegal according to French law, the judge rejected the first request and asked for more info on the second, pending a ruling OVH says they've done what the…

So since Visa and mastercard vet all their customers so carefully they presumably approve of any porn child or otherwise that is bought on their cards.

I don't think that's entirely fair because if they are aware of a merchant doing such a thing they'd be shut down in a heartbeat.

That said I really don't think they have any business shutting down the flow of funds between parties that have not actually been sentenced (or even accused) of a crime of sorts.

Re: Don't shoot the messenger for telling the truth

#62
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, look at the comment you originally replied to. It's a "reasonable objection" about Wikileaks. It also has actual content and a point that it makes, as opposed to, say, being a one-line opinion with no support. Now look at your comment.

I replied to a comment in the thread, re-enforcing that commenters opinion. I'm sure people don't like it, and that's fine, but to consistently be downvoted every time I post a negative reaction to Assange is absurd. I wish we, as a community, could elevate ourselves above the infighting reminiscent of an MSNBC or FOXNews.

Don't need to, but have the option to.

Re: Don't shoot the messenger for telling the truth

#63
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's been calling to kidnap his son? I did a quick (1 minute) google search, but couldn't find a source.

According to TFA: * Sarah Palin says I should be "hunted down like Osama bin Laden", a Republican bill sits before the US Senate seeking to have me declared a "transnational threat" and disposed of accordingly. An adviser to the Canadian Prime Minister's office has called on national television for me to be assassinated. An American blogger has called for my 20-year-old son, here in Australia, to be kidnapped and har…

swombat, just to add a little humor to that. "hunted down like Osama bin Laden" When exactly did the US of A actually manage to hunt down Osama bin laden? If Assange is hunted the same way, he is sage until around 2030.

Re: Don't shoot the messenger for telling the truth

#64

Bail was refused: "Let down by the UK justice system's bizarre decision to refuse bail to Julian Assange. But #cablegate releases continue as planned." http://twitter.com/wikileaks

Should have just tortured and murdered lots of people and made himself dictator - then the UK home office would be falling over itself not to arrest him.

On the other hand this may be the safest place for him. If he accidentally "shoots himself in the back of the head while shaving" while in police custody that should bring down the current coalition government.

Re: Don't shoot the messenger for telling the truth

#65

The "truth" has limits on publication: privacy, confidentiality, privilege, security, etc. Just because something is the truth, does not mean it is right to publish it. Assange is not a whistle blower. He is not exposing any misrepresentations or cover-up. He is simply exposing America's secrets in order to hurt America. That is criminal.

Oversimplification does not benefit anybody. > He is simply exposing America's secrets in order to hurt America. That is criminal. Assuming he is - which I really think misses the point - by what law is this criminal ? He's not an American citizen, nor is he in America. Why do you feel this is criminal ? Do you think it would it be criminal if an American did it ?

In doing business with criminals, you become one IMO. Sure, technically he's not violating any laws, but I think that points to flaws in the justice system (worldwide, not just the US) more than it does to his nobility.

If someone illegally sells/steals/shares confidential information, then where does the chain of responsibility/legality stop?

Re: Don't shoot the messenger for telling the truth

#66

The "truth" has limits on publication: privacy, confidentiality, privilege, security, etc. Just because something is the truth, does not mean it is right to publish it. Assange is not a whistle blower. He is not exposing any misrepresentations or cover-up. He is simply exposing America's secrets in order to hurt America. That is criminal.

Oversimplification does not benefit anybody. > He is simply exposing America's secrets in order to hurt America. That is criminal. Assuming he is - which I really think misses the point - by what law is this criminal ? He's not an American citizen, nor is he in America. Why do you feel this is criminal ? Do you think it would it be criminal if an American did it ?

It is criminal in the general sense. He will be prosecuted for violating any statutes if there is jurisdiction. I don't see how I oversimplified; truth has limits, so you can "shoot the messenger". Truth is not a defense if you exceed the limits I mention.

Re: Don't shoot the messenger for telling the truth

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So since Visa and mastercard vet all their customers so carefully they presumably approve of any porn child or otherwise that is bought on their cards.

I don't think that's entirely fair because if they are aware of a merchant doing such a thing they'd be shut down in a heartbeat. That said I really don't think they have any business shutting down the flow of funds between parties that have not actually been sentenced (or even accused) of a crime of sorts.

It's a great 'operation ore' defence though. If a web site was offering payment by Visa/Mastercard then I assumed it was all legal when I signed up to download the pictures - because MC/Visa vet their customers.

Note to foreigners: operation ore was a UK police sweep to arrest pedophiles solely on the evidence that their credit card numbers had been used on child porn sites in the US. The judge rejected claims that the credit cards could have been stolen because of the strenuous efforts credit card companies put into security.

Re: Don't shoot the messenger for telling the truth

#68
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, look at the comment you originally replied to. It's a "reasonable objection" about Wikileaks. It also has actual content and a point that it makes, as opposed to, say, being a one-line opinion with no support. Now look at your comment.

I replied to a comment in the thread, re-enforcing that commenters opinion. I'm sure people don't like it, and that's fine, but to consistently be downvoted every time I post a negative reaction to Assange is absurd. I wish we, as a community, could elevate ourselves above the infighting reminiscent of an MSNBC or FOXNews.

Please consider the possibility that you haven't learned to post your negative reactions in a thoughtful way, rather than that the community is simply downvoting opinions they don't like.

Re: Don't shoot the messenger for telling the truth

#69
post #60
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

http://supreme.justia.com/us/403/713/case.html New York Times Co. v. United States, 403 U.S. 713 (1971) "Only a free and unrestrained press can effectively expose deception in government. And paramount among the responsibilities of a free press is the duty to prevent any part of the government from deceiving the people and sending them off to distant lands to die of foreign fevers and foreign shot and shell. In my vi…

From Stewart's concurrence:

[...]

Yet it is elementary that the successful conduct of international diplomacy and the maintenance of an effective national defense require both confidentiality and secrecy. Other nations can hardly deal with this Nation in an atmosphere of mutual trust unless they can be assured that their confidences will be kept. And, within our own executive departments, the development of considered and intelligent international policies would be impossible if those charged with their formulation could not communicate with each other freely, frankly, and in confidence. In the area of basic national defense, the frequent need for absolute secrecy is, of course, self-evident.

I think there can be but one answer to this dilemma, if dilemma it be. The responsibility must be where the power is. If the Constitution gives the Executive a large degree of unshared power in the conduct of foreign affairs and the maintenance of our national defense, then, under the Constitution, the Executive must have the largely unshared duty to determine and preserve the degree of internal security necessary to exercise that power successfully. It is an awesome responsibility, requiring judgment and wisdom of a high order. I should suppose that moral, political, and practical considerations would dictate that a very first principle of that wisdom would be an insistence upon avoiding secrecy for its own sake. For when everything is classified, then nothing is classified, and the system becomes one to be disregarded by the cynical or the careless, and to be manipulated by those intent on self-protection or self-promotion. I should suppose, in short, that the hallmark of a truly effective internal security system would be the maximum possible disclosure, recognizing that secrecy can best be preserved only when credibility is truly maintained. But, be that as it may, it is clear to me that it is the constitutional duty of the Executive -- as a matter of sovereign prerogative, and not as a matter of law as the courts know law -- through the promulgation and enforcement of executive regulations, to protect the confidentiality necessary to carry out its responsibilities in the fields of international relations and national defense.

This is not to say that Congress and the courts have no role to play. Undoubtedly, Congress has the power to enact specific and appropriate criminal laws to protect government property and preserve government secrets. Congress has passed such laws, and several of them are of very colorable relevance to the apparent circumstances of these cases. And if a criminal prosecution is instituted, it will be the responsibility of the courts to decide the applicability of the criminal law under which the charge is brought. Moreover, if Congress should pass a specific law authorizing civil proceedings in this field, the courts would likewise have the duty to decide the constitutionality of such a law, as well as its applicability to the facts proved.

Re: Don't shoot the messenger for telling the truth

#70
post #39

If there is treason, it is with the person leaking the documents -- not the media vehicle which publishes them.

Apart from crazy people like Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich --- who claimed that Assange is an "active enemy of the American people", thus implying that everyone who donated money to Wikileaks has given material support to our enemies --- who is seriously claiming that Assange is a "traitor"? From my perspective, the theme that unites all the "formal" claims against Wikileaks is that they are all ludicrous. What crime could he have commited?

Manning is a different story. Someone upthread compared him to Ellsberg (it doesn't help that Ellsberg did, too). But Ellsburg's act was deliberate and carefully planned. Manning, on the other hand, is accused of scooping up vast buckets of documents off SIPRnet servers and then handing them off to complete strangers. Amnesty, the Soros Open Society Institute (to which WL applied for a grant), and the ICG all criticized Wikileaks --- the whole organization --- for not being careful enough in redacting documents. Yet we're to believe that a single private in the military could possibly have judged the impact of what he was handing to Wikileaks?

Adrian Lamo --- who I don't know from Adam, and whose story I've never followed --- took a vast helping of shit for exposing Manning. I don't know what his motives were and I don't care. But I will say that if Manning was even modestly competent with technology, Lamo may have saved his life by stopping him.

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