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A Quest to Make Gasoline Out of Thin Air: Prometheus (YC W19)

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Re: A Quest to Make Gasoline Out of Thin Air: Prometheus (YC W19)

#121
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much do today's "carbon recapture" methods need to grow? What's the timeline on them looking like? P.S. The first Google result for carbon recapture is titled "“Direct air capture” of carbon dioxide won't solve climate change" P.P.S From Wikipedia with a cited source: capturing and compressing CO2 and other system costs are estimated to increase the cost per watt-hour energy produced by 21–91% for fossil fuel pow…

The author of the article (who does not appear to be an expert in anything) overlooks that renewables only address part of the emissions picture. Even if the U.S. switched tomorrow to 100% renewables and 100% electric vehicles (including trains, cars, planes, and ships), and you ignore the CO2 emissions of making all those new power plants and vehicles, U.S. usage would only go down by 3.5 gigaton: https://www.epa.go…

>And those places are a long ways away from electric cars and solar power plants. (Also, where would you put them in say India or Bangladesh?)

Huh? What does that mean? You mean there is so space in India or Bangladesh to put solar power plants?

Re: A Quest to Make Gasoline Out of Thin Air: Prometheus (YC W19)

#122

Hi HN! I'm Rob, founder of Prometheus. Just saw this, catching up now and will try to answer any questions.

Hi Rob. Why bother trying to extract CO2 out of "thin air" when there are far more concentrated sources available, for example exhaust of existing power plants (100,000 ppm CO2, instead of 400 ppm)?

There are even streams of pure CO2 being vented to the atmosphere, eg: https://thewest.com.au/business/energy/woodsides-browse-lng-...

Re: A Quest to Make Gasoline Out of Thin Air: Prometheus (YC W19)

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, Rob from Prometheus here! Most of the skepticism about CO2 removal from the air is focused on "carbon sequestration and storage" or CSS, which is mitigation of emissions from fossil fuel by putting CO2 into the ground, for example. Turning CO2 from the air into useful products like fuels and building materials is much more capable of scaling because these products have value independently from regulations or carb…

It’s not thermodynamically possible to recapture carbon from the air without using more energy than was obtained by burning it the first place.

I imagine the goal is to use renewables for the energy required for capture.

Re: A Quest to Make Gasoline Out of Thin Air: Prometheus (YC W19)

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, Rob from Prometheus here! Most of the skepticism about CO2 removal from the air is focused on "carbon sequestration and storage" or CSS, which is mitigation of emissions from fossil fuel by putting CO2 into the ground, for example. Turning CO2 from the air into useful products like fuels and building materials is much more capable of scaling because these products have value independently from regulations or carb…

It’s not thermodynamically possible to recapture carbon from the air without using more energy than was obtained by burning it the first place.

Hydrocarbons are better energy stores than batteries. If we can “charge your car” by pumping hydrocarbons into it, that is better than lugging around heavy batteries (maybe.) so, in a way, co2 -> gasoline via solar power (or nuke) is an overall win.

Re: A Quest to Make Gasoline Out of Thin Air: Prometheus (YC W19)

#125
I wrote the comment below in response to another article, but it is applicable here. I should note that the technology to convert CO2 to say hydrocarbons is well known (and my current work is on making it economically interesting), my issue is with trying to extract CO2 from the atmosphere, which is very inefficient.

-----

This is actually a very bad idea and a complete waste of money which should have been used for other projects. It reminds me of another bad idea, which just will not die - extracting water from air by cooling it. Right now, we have several technologies ready to go. Starting with the most cost-effective, and omitting the "use less" scenarios:

1. Replacement of fossil fuel power plants with carbon free electricity such as wind and solar power (also geothermal, where possible and nuclear, where palatable). Cost per tonne of CO2 saved: less than zero for about 30% of current generation, and "very low" for a good portion of the remainder.

2. Sequestration of concentrated CO2 streams, such as those produced in natural gas processing. Cost: $20-$40 per tonne.

3. Biosequestration, ie tree planting. Cost varies greatly, maybe $15-$50 per tonne.

The approaches above are the only ones that are actually used in the industry today, but there is plenty of room to do more. The approaches below are considered to be economically prohibitive, and AFAIK are not in use:

4. Post-combustion carbon capture: Scrubbing the CO2 from exhaust gases of power plants etc, where the CO2 concentration is 10-20%. Cost: $50-100/tonne, PLUS the cost of sequestration, as above.

5. Pre-combustion carbon capture: here, the carbon is removed from the fuel and sequestered, and only the hydrogen is burned. Cost: $80-150/tonne, but sequestration cost is low.

and then we have:

6. Removal of CO2 from the atmosphere. The article says the cost may be "under $100/tonne", but the serious estimates I have seen are circa $500/tonne. Consider that the CO2 concentration in air is around 0.04%, cf post combustion concentrations of 10-20%. Regardless of the advances in technology, this will never be as cheap as post-combustion carbon capture, which is essentially the same process but with 250 times less throughput.

Re: A Quest to Make Gasoline Out of Thin Air: Prometheus (YC W19)

#126
post #90
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody thinks they'll get net energy out of this. They're spending energy to make carbon-neutral liquid fuels. The energy would have to come from renewables or nuclear for this to be useful.

The energy return on energy invested is going to be abysmal. No more than 20% if that. That translates into synth gasoline at $30/gallon

How do you figure?

Re: A Quest to Make Gasoline Out of Thin Air: Prometheus (YC W19)

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, Rob from Prometheus here! Most of the skepticism about CO2 removal from the air is focused on "carbon sequestration and storage" or CSS, which is mitigation of emissions from fossil fuel by putting CO2 into the ground, for example. Turning CO2 from the air into useful products like fuels and building materials is much more capable of scaling because these products have value independently from regulations or carb…

It’s not thermodynamically possible to recapture carbon from the air without using more energy than was obtained by burning it the first place.

Thermodynamically, no. But is that the question?

We're a long way away from consuming so much energy we thermodynamically scorch the Earth, right?

It seems like they want to know if you can be mostly carbon neutral and generate existing fuels.

If that's the case, then if you have access to a cheap form of renewable energy -- huge amounts of geothermal, tidal, or solar -- you could generate a ton of something-like-gasoline, reduce carbon, and come out nearly neutral when re-burning it.

Theoretically, you can profit if the renewable source of energy is cheaper than the cost of generating and distributing the fuels.

I'm skeptical this is possible. But if it is, I'm optimistic it will actually happen.

Re: A Quest to Make Gasoline Out of Thin Air: Prometheus (YC W19)

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, Rob from Prometheus here! Most of the skepticism about CO2 removal from the air is focused on "carbon sequestration and storage" or CSS, which is mitigation of emissions from fossil fuel by putting CO2 into the ground, for example. Turning CO2 from the air into useful products like fuels and building materials is much more capable of scaling because these products have value independently from regulations or carb…

It’s not thermodynamically possible to recapture carbon from the air without using more energy than was obtained by burning it the first place.

The esoteric read on this, then, is it is a bet on fusion.

Re: A Quest to Make Gasoline Out of Thin Air: Prometheus (YC W19)

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much do today's "carbon recapture" methods need to grow? What's the timeline on them looking like? P.S. The first Google result for carbon recapture is titled "“Direct air capture” of carbon dioxide won't solve climate change" P.P.S From Wikipedia with a cited source: capturing and compressing CO2 and other system costs are estimated to increase the cost per watt-hour energy produced by 21–91% for fossil fuel pow…

Hi, Rob from Prometheus here! Most of the skepticism about CO2 removal from the air is focused on "carbon sequestration and storage" or CSS, which is mitigation of emissions from fossil fuel by putting CO2 into the ground, for example. Turning CO2 from the air into useful products like fuels and building materials is much more capable of scaling because these products have value independently from regulations or carb…

>Most of the skepticism about CO2 removal from the air is focused on "carbon sequestration and storage" or CSS, which is mitigation of emissions from fossil fuel by putting CO2 into the ground

That is false! Most of the skepticism about CO2 removal from the air is focused on the difficulty of said removal, compared with the relative ease of removing CO2 from eg power plant exhaust.

Re: A Quest to Make Gasoline Out of Thin Air: Prometheus (YC W19)

#130
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much do today's "carbon recapture" methods need to grow? What's the timeline on them looking like? P.S. The first Google result for carbon recapture is titled "“Direct air capture” of carbon dioxide won't solve climate change" P.P.S From Wikipedia with a cited source: capturing and compressing CO2 and other system costs are estimated to increase the cost per watt-hour energy produced by 21–91% for fossil fuel pow…

The author of the article (who does not appear to be an expert in anything) overlooks that renewables only address part of the emissions picture. Even if the U.S. switched tomorrow to 100% renewables and 100% electric vehicles (including trains, cars, planes, and ships), and you ignore the CO2 emissions of making all those new power plants and vehicles, U.S. usage would only go down by 3.5 gigaton: https://www.epa.go…

>The current cost of carbon capture is about $120 per ton

I don't know where you got this from (citation?), but I am sure this is not the cost of capturing CO2 from the atmosphere via "technology" (trees - arguably yes).

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