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U.K. Police Have a Message for Crime Victims: Hand over Your Private Data

nytimes.com

41–50 of 131 posts

Re: U.K. Police Have a Message for Crime Victims: Hand over Your Private Data

#41
post #30

Here's the CPS guidance being talked about: https://www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/handing-over-mobile-phone-da... Here's an English barrister talking about the guidance: https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/11228239278042275... tl;dr it doesn't say what you think it says.

That Secret Barrister link paints a very different (and much more measured) picture to what's been splashed on the front pages of the newspapers.

It bears reading.

Unrolled version of the above. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1122823927804227586.html

Re: U.K. Police Have a Message for Crime Victims: Hand over Your Private Data

#42

This seems like it will inevitably discourage victims from reporting crime. Imagine a scenario where someone is mugged but doesn't want to report it to the police because they have some texts from their weed dealer on their phone: as a result the mugger never gets reported and may mug somebody else. Not to mention the huge opportunities it creates for a kind of blackmail (criminal A commits a crime against criminal B…

This is a very realistic example. I know several people that have been victimized but have not reported it because they were otherwise breaking some law themselves.

I unfortunately know a woman who was raped, but did not report it because she was underage drinking at the time. She has spent decades now regretting that decision. The fear of reporting is real.

Re: U.K. Police Have a Message for Crime Victims: Hand over Your Private Data

#43
post #8

> Mr. Ephgrave, the assistant commissioner, acknowledged such concerns in his statement. > “We understand that how personal data is used can be a source of anxiety,” he said. “We would never want victims to feel that they can’t report crimes because of ‘intrusion’ in their data.” > “That’s why a new national form has been introduced,” replacing policies that varied from place to place, “to help police seek informed c…

Not sure about the UK, but in the US the police have no formal duty to protect you. No matter how much warning/info/evidence they have that someone will be victimized, and no matter how easy/reasonable it is for the police to prevent it, citizens are generically not entitled to compensation for failure to be protected. Rather, the police's mission (both formally and as a functional matter) is overwhelmingly about cat…

So, can we get the money back that we waste on the police? They steal more than actual criminals anyway.

Re: U.K. Police Have a Message for Crime Victims: Hand over Your Private Data

#44
post #8

> Mr. Ephgrave, the assistant commissioner, acknowledged such concerns in his statement. > “We understand that how personal data is used can be a source of anxiety,” he said. “We would never want victims to feel that they can’t report crimes because of ‘intrusion’ in their data.” > “That’s why a new national form has been introduced,” replacing policies that varied from place to place, “to help police seek informed c…

Not sure about the UK, but in the US the police have no formal duty to protect you. No matter how much warning/info/evidence they have that someone will be victimized, and no matter how easy/reasonable it is for the police to prevent it, citizens are generically not entitled to compensation for failure to be protected. Rather, the police's mission (both formally and as a functional matter) is overwhelmingly about cat…

>> but in the US

Thanks for pivoting the thread to criticism of the US. These stories about controversies in non-US countries are unwelcome and cause a lot of anxiety, and the sooner the discussion can be refocused on the deficiencies of the US the better.

Re: U.K. Police Have a Message for Crime Victims: Hand over Your Private Data

#45
The role of police is to uncover the truth, leaving no stone unturned. That truth might be a false accusation. Of course the femonazis who don't care to uncover the truth about false accusations might be upset by this, but is that any surprise?

Funny the difference in headlines, huh?

> A version of this article appears in print on , on Page A4 of the New York edition with the headline: U.K. Requires Rape Victims to Hand In Phone. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe

Re: U.K. Police Have a Message for Crime Victims: Hand over Your Private Data

#46
post #36
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking as if a trial 'collapsing' (I assume this means the accused is found not guilty) is some huge catastrophe, when in fact the possibility of such 'collapse' is the whole point of a trial.

If there's no hope of a conviction because there's evidence that strongly suggests the events didn't happen it would be better to avoid the trial.

It would, but I wouldn't want to entirely give up victim privacy for it.

Re: U.K. Police Have a Message for Crime Victims: Hand over Your Private Data

#47
post #29

The point being, it would be nice to know the trial isn't going to collapse because the defense got a subpoena on the phone's contents and nobody in the prosecution had plans for what they found. This is an artefact of the adversarial model of justice. Someone is being paid to get mister rapist, mister burglar and miss stabbity off the hook and they can and will use anything that makes you look like a liar or unrelia…

Hang on, the courts in England do not, cannot by law, work like that. Here's an English barrister talking about it: https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/11228239278042275...

The Secret Barrister’s tweets don’t contradict the comment you replied to. Defence lawyers can subpoena relevant material, such as communications with the accused person, from prosecution witnesses. That material will not necessarily be admissible before the jury, and the court may restrict the use of subpoenas for privacy reasons as long as it doesn’t undermine the defendant’s right to a fair trial. The Secret Barrister is talking about what the police must do whether or not the accused person issues subpoenas.

Police do have a duty to pursue all reasonable lines of inquiry. If it’s a rape allegation where the complainant had a previous relationship with the rapist, and the critical issue is the complainant’s credibility, would it ever be legally unreasonable for the police to ask for the victim to turn over their phone as the first step in the investigation? And if this occurs, couldn’t that have a chilling effect on crime reporting, even if the fruits of that search would not normally need to be disclosed to the accused (or would at least be ruled inadmissible at trial, after being disclosed to the accused)?

Nobody wants unfamiliar officers trawling through their phones, but the law didn’t have to change to make it far more likely that victims of crime would suffer invasions of privacy as a side effect of a lawful and proper criminal investigation. We just started carrying around huge amounts of evidence about our private lives, including evidence relevant to crimes we might want to report, 24/7. We need to talk about whether that societal fact has changed the balance to be struck between the rights of victims and defendants in the criminal justice system.

Re: U.K. Police Have a Message for Crime Victims: Hand over Your Private Data

#48

> “Police have a duty to pursue all reasonable lines of enquiry,” Assistant Commissioner Nick Ephgrave, the National Police Chiefs’ Council lead for criminal justice, said in a statement. “Those now frequently extend into the devices of victims and witnesses as well as suspects — particularly in cases where suspects and victims know each other.” > Most sexual assaults are committed by people who are known to the vict…

Imagine that someone is a victim of a sexual assault by someone they knew. Emails or text messages pertaining to that person certainly can be relevant, but all the rest of the persons emails, text, photos, and other app data?

That seems beyond excessive, and could easily lead to the police going out of their way or using automated mean to scan your entire life for other things they could charge you with.

It would be similar to having your car robbed while parked at a shopping mall, then having the police refuse to help unless they could search your entire house too.

Re: U.K. Police Have a Message for Crime Victims: Hand over Your Private Data

#49
post #31
post #8

> Mr. Ephgrave, the assistant commissioner, acknowledged such concerns in his statement. > “We understand that how personal data is used can be a source of anxiety,” he said. “We would never want victims to feel that they can’t report crimes because of ‘intrusion’ in their data.” > “That’s why a new national form has been introduced,” replacing policies that varied from place to place, “to help police seek informed c…

I'm not sure I understand your point. In England we don't have a national police force; we have lots of local forces. There's wide variation in how they respond to crime. We noticed this variation was causing injustice: women (and men) who were raped were not having their crimes robustly investigated; men who were accused of rape were not having their defence robustly investigated. The new guidance is telling police…

The point being made by GP is that the rules are already too broad; simply writing them down does very little (if anything) to address the worry about data intrusion. If I were to do something horrible to another person, they wouldn't have much reassurance if I said "here's a list of what I can (and thus can't) do to you, and when (and thus when not) I can do it to you".

I'm a very data security conscious person. If something bad happened to me the last thing I'd want is for the police to say that they can't continue to work on my case unless I grant them access to my device(s) and then trust them to not be (deliberately or not) "incompetent" with what they're doing. If anything this should be part of a policy in which victims elect to volunteer information when asked if there's anything that could help the case. I can actually easily imagine a case in which I've been sexually assaulted (and this has happened to me) and I would not go to the police if they had a policy like this.

If the police are searching on my phone, what if I have something illegal I don't want them to see? Something they might think is 'concerning' that they can write down and decide to pursue later? What if I'm a sex worker and they can find out through looking at my phone, and even gather proof that fact? And before we say that we can trust them to be competent, what about the other story here?[0] What about the myriad of horrible laws that are passed in England and Wales which restrain even private possession of comics?

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19785416

Re: U.K. Police Have a Message for Crime Victims: Hand over Your Private Data

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you say your child was kidnapped, I bet that your Google docs might be read.

But why. What use would my Google Docs have?

Often when children go missing the parents are responsible or complicit in some way. People write things down all the time -- a google account may contain incriminating emails, IM messages, or other documents such as journal entries.

I'm squicked out about the invasion like many are, and if I thought about it carefully I expect I would come out against the idea, but I can actually see the case for this invasion.

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